Transcript of Episode 187: Does Red Light Therapy Work?
With Dr. Daniel Pompa, Meredith Dykstra and Joovv Co-Founders Justin Strahan and Scott Nelson
Meredith:
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Cellular Healing TV. This is Episode 187, and I’m your host, Meredith Dykstra. We have Dr. Dan Pompa on the line, of course, our resident cellular healing specialist, and today we have a very exciting episode for you guys. We’re going to be delving into the world of phototherapy. We haven’t really talked about this on Cellular Healing TV yet. It’s a very unique tool that we can use to improve our cellular health, and it’s a lot of different benefits.
We have two phototherapy experts on the show today, Scott and Justin, and they are from a company called Joovv. We’re going to hear all about their product and why it’s different than a lot of other light therapy devices out there, but before we dig into the show and the discussion and learning more about light therapy, I’m going to tell you a little bit more about Justin and Scott. Scott Nelson is the impetus and energy that initially set Joovv in motion. As head of commercialization, his ability to metabolize information quickly makes him an irreplaceable asset to the company. Prior to cofounding Joovv, Scott spent his entire professional career in leadership positions with some of the largest medical device companies in the world, including Medtronic, Covidien, Boston Scientific, and C.R. Bard. Scott is best friends with his wife and soulmate, Liz, and loves spending time with his four kids. A fun fact of Scott is, in his spare time, Scott is also the cofounder—or also the host of Medsider radio, a top-ranked medical device broadcast, fun fact.
Next, on to Justin, who’s also the cofounder of Joovv, not just any man can take his wife’s dream and make it a reality. This is one of the reasons why Justin is such a special part of the Joovv team. His affinity for process and extreme attention to detail is why Joovv is lucky to have him as head of research and development. Prior to inventing and developing the Joovv light, Justin spent his career as an engineer managing design and development teams. He considers himself blessed to share life with his high school sweetheart, Melissa, and their six children. Together, they share the passion for bringing health and wellness to the world, and Justin’s fun fact is that he can play drums and trumpet like nobody’s business. All right, we are so excited to have you guys on the show. Justin and Scott, welcome to Cellular Healing TV.
Justin:
Excellent. Thanks for having us.
Scott:
Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. Look, I guess I should really start with the story about how I ended up with a Joovv light and absolutely love it. I mean, my study, obviously, is the cell and the mitochondria, and I would have to say this product really is an amazing biohack for the mitochondria. The science has been something that’s been a passion of mine for the last year or so, and I have to credit Joe Mercola because he was on it before me. Now, he always says I was on these before him, and we share. We get mad at each other when we don’t tip each other off ahead of time, but he tipped me off about this, okay? I can’t blame him on this because he said, Dan, you got to get one of these Joovv lights. Of course, he had talked about the frequency, the power of it, etc. I mean, yeah, this is the one.
Joe tells me to get a lot of things, right? It wasn’t on the top of my radar, and then something happened, right? I have a client that has, really, probably the hardest autoimmune skin condition that I’ve seen, and at one point, we had her cleared up completely. Then other stressors come into her life again, and it was back. Anyways, bottom line is she ends up with a Joovv light and transformed her skin. After that email, then it was like, okay, I’ve got to jump deeper into this, right? It was one thing reading data and clinical studies, etc., but it was another thing because I knew this case, right, and how hard it was. It transformed her life, and then I got one. I’ll tell you, man, I am in front of that thing most days, twice a day, so it’s been really amazing.
I’ll tell you a story just happened yesterday. Meredith, you know Hank Williams. He’s one of my doctors that I train. He actually just got a kidney transplant, and he’s staying with us. We’re helping him along. He was having a really bad day yesterday, and I said, man, I’ve been telling you. Get in front of this Joovv light, so I put him in front of the Joovv light. I’m telling you, it was within ten minutes he felt completely different. I mean, it turned his day. I mean, that’s the power of what can happen -inaudible- affect the mitochondria, and therefore—we’re not going to get into the science.
The bottom line is I am a believer. Matter of fact, here’s—I’m just going to show people this right at the top of the show. I wish I could drag my computer in there, but let’s see if we can show that. There’s the Joovv light. Okay. Now, hold on. There’s me standing in front of the Joovv light.
It was funny. The first time I turned it on, my 13-year-old was there, right? See, I hung it. It’s pretty easy to put in. You just hang it from a door, right? That’s in my bathroom. I turned the switch on, and it was like, bloo! It was probably like the eclipse that’s going to happen, right?
Anyways, it was like this. He’s like, oh, oh. He’s like this. He said I’m ruined because he looked right into it. I says I’m pretty sure you can actually look into this. Then, of course, my wife, Merily, is emailing you. Can you look into this thing? I think it may have just blinded my son, but actually, it’s good for the eyes. Anyways, that was just a funny experience.
Okay. Let’s jump right into why I think that this should be a part, especially today. I think your product is more—has more importance today with the epidemic of why people are getting sick. I mean, we talk about light. We talk about different frequencies. Why is this product so important? I guess that stems into how you got into it, so maybe I should just start there. How did you get into this and why is it so—why do I feel like everybody should have this product?
Justin:
Sure. I think it really starts with just the incredible role that light played in overall health. Right now, in the winters in Minneapolis, my wife was really trying to find a way that you can be—get Vitamin D and light during winters. As you can imagine, in the Northern Minnesota area, you don’t get a whole lot of sunlight or exposure to sun during the winter, so that’s what really led her to look into this to start with. It really led us down a path of digging into the science and really being floored with the amount of research that has already been conducted; I mean, literally, hundreds and hundreds of public studies. Knowing the studies and the research that has proven the different health benefits from, really, a wide range of different health conditions, you mentioned different skin or autoimmune diseases, it’s pretty incredible the benefits that can really help anyone. I think, in today’s day and age, so many of us are really separated from the energy and light that we’re meant to be exposed to from the sun, whether it’s just our daily schedules, or where we live, or the climate, so I think, for those reasons, it’s something that, really, everybody can add to their routine and really benefit from.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. You’ve got the engineer there, Justin, here, so you can take your word on this more than mine. This has been a study of mine over the last year, but we’ve had Jack Kruse on, Meredith, right, who talked about light. I think a lot of our viewers and listeners were blown away. Wow! Light matters that much. We talked about the regular lights in homes, overwhelming blue lights, staring at screens, overwhelming blue light in buildings most of the day with an imbalance of light. Is that one of the reasons why this technology is making such an impact in people?
Justin:
Yeah. I’m convinced that it really is. The way that we live today is radically different from the way we lived even 20 years ago before the advent of, really, computers and the internet age. Now everybody has their own iPad and a cell phone, and as you mentioned, we’re constantly being bombarded by blue lights and EMF. All those things really cause an electrical strain on our systems. By being able to expose ourself to an intense dosage of the right wavelengths of light, we’re really able to help counteract those effects, and provide a boost of energy for ourselves. That’s one of the things that we really focused on designing our device for is, as looking at the research, looking at the critical wavelengths that are the most beneficial for mitochondrial health and the cytochrome c oxidase and helping that enzyme to be more efficient so that you can have restoring—basically, restore cellular function so that you’re getting the ATP production, which results in a whole host of different benefits. That’s really what we were aiming for.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. I want to bring out the benefits. You mentioned there’s many studies. I’ve been through probably a very few of the hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of studies on this, but let’s talk about the benefits. I don’t want to lose people in the beginning of the show. You know what I’m saying? I mean, there’s so many benefits that people are going to attach to. Ladies, this is a real deal. My wife would never do Botox, so when I read her things about what it does for collagen, activating collagen, that was it for her. She won’t miss a day, right?
There’s other things that excited me. What it does in the mitochondria, I already spoke about that but just line out the benefits. Guys out there, athletes, Ben Greenfield, one of my best friends, I was just with him last week. We were biking, right? It’s like both of us were like, hey, we want to spend time in front of our Joovv. It raises testosterone, shortens recovery time. That’s why Ben, myself, we’re addicted to it, but anyways, talk about the benefits.
Scott:
Yeah. I mean, there’s a whole host of them, and I think, Dr. Pompa, you’ve been banging on this drum for a long time, the concept of cellular healing. That’s what these types of wavelengths that are delivered from our device—with the right intensity, that’s what you’re doing, in a sense, is you’re healing yourselves. You’re restoring that normal cellular function, which I think is going to be—you would probably know this more so than I. It’s going to become that much more important in the coming years with folks like yourself and you mentioned Dr. Mercola continuing to promote the advantages of cellular healing. Specific to our device and both the red and the near-infrared wavelengths—and I’m sure we’ll get into the specific wavelengths, but there’s a whole host of benefits. You mentioned skin health. That’s probably what most people think of right away is increased collagen and the byproducts of that, reduced wrinkles, the fading of scars, the fading of stretchmarks, etc.
All great benefits but the benefits go well beyond that, and so guys like Ben Greenfield that are competitive athletes, they’ve noticed significant increases in muscle recovery, reduced joint pain from some potential injuries, increased testosterone. We were down at Onnit with Aubrey Marcus about a month or so ago, and I know he’s a big fan of it for that specific reason. Increased testosterone, reduced joint pain, increased muscle recovery, increased collagen, the lists literally go so broad. You can probably imagine. We get a lot of inbound requests from our customers. Sometimes we encourage people that even if you don’t necessarily want to go that deep with the science, go check out reviews, and you can hear people from such a wide variety of backgrounds in their own words speaking to what they’ve been healed from with a [pacific] light. Yeah. The benefits are pretty broad and pretty wide.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. I don’t want to dive too hard in the science, but I think it’s important here. When we look at—I have a saying. You won’t get well until you fix the cell, so then we have to dive a little deeper into that. What’s going wrong today? We’re bombarded with different stressors today, electromagnetic frequencies, right? My kids have been—we didn’t have this as kids like we have today. Our kids are. We have different chemicals, glyphosate, etc., I mean, all these different chemicals bombarding the cell, so we have chemical stress. We have frequency, electrical stress. We have more emotional stresses, so a lot of things are happening, which then, if we pull that into the cell, there’s some things that happen.
Now, in the literature, at least with this light thing, we know that in the mitochondria—which by the way, this is why it’s so broad of how it helps so many things. Now we’re down into where we make energy in the cell. In the literature, it talks about stressors cause something, and we both mentioned it. It’s called cytochrome c oxidase. We’ll just call it cytochrome c. This one little thing and its role of combining oxygen to something called NADH, right—okay. Tell me if I’m wrong. That role of that combining those two things is how—make it very simple, how we make energy, right? Through the electron transport chain, blah, blah, blah, that’s how we make ATP.
Stressors -inaudible- bind to cytochrome c instead of oxygen, right? Therefore, now we don’t have what we need to make ATP, and that has a dramatic effect on the energy. It’s something I say on the show all the time. I have my 5Rs of how you fix a cell. R3 is restoring cellular energy. It affects the detox of the cell. It affects every possible cellular function, every function in the body, so the most basic thing is restoring cellular energy.
This light does that by affecting it, what’s binding to it and how we use this to make energy. Expand upon that. I don’t want to lose my viewers, but I want you to understand how important this is. There’s so many stressors that are affecting this one very simple process that affects the outcome of our energy and, therefore, our brain function, our digestion, and all these things. Explain that a little bit.
Justin:
Sure. I think what’s critical or meant to remind people is what you’re doing exactly. It’s reminding people that health really starts at a foundational level or at a cellular level. I think in our society we so often get caught up in the thinking of I have this symptom, so I want to fix this symptom. We have people who come to us all the time, and they’re like, hey, this is the problem I have. I want to fix this problem. Does it help with this?
We try to back up a little bit. Say, well, just back up a little bit. Yes, there is evidence that this helps with this, but the bigger picture is here. You’re providing energy that your cells need so that we can help restore our cellular function. It’s difficult to tell people the timeframe of when to expect healing or for their specific health challenge and what kind of results they’ll see or a timeline. Just to help them start thinking down this path of you’re restoring cellular function at the most basic level, and then health will flow from that in time. That’s really what our light is geared to do.
You mentioning the science and the wavelengths, the evidence is pretty clear as far as what specific wavelengths are most beneficial and how this all works. If you look at sunlight, for example, you obviously have a broad range of wavelengths. You have UV below 400 nanometers. You have infrared wavelengths that are longer than 700 nanometers, and then you have the visible light spectrum between 400 and 700. What they found is there’s two main ranges that are the most beneficial for boosting this cellular function or this enzyme CcO or cytochrome c. The first range is between about 660 and 670 nanometers, which is in the red spectrum. The combo Max device that you have, it has—the red LEDs that are visible are 660 nanometers, and then the next wavelength or range that has been proven to be effective as well is between roughly 800 to 880 nanometers. That’s in the near-infrared spectrum, which is also used in that same device. The specific wavelength that we use is 850 nanometers for some various reasons, but it’s basically right in the center of that peak intensity as far as how it can boost cellular function.
Those wavelengths have, literally, hundreds of published research studies on those benefits. As you can see on the photo that Dr. Pompa is holding up there, you have a pattern of the red LEDs, and then there are some other LEDs that actually look like they’re off. The reason is the…
Dr. Pompa:
That’s why I showed it. Just to show you that—I don’t know if you can see it, but some of them look they’re off. It’s just not visible light. You have two different wavelengths, and that’s what you’re describing.
Justin:
Exactly. The other critical factor of why these wavelengths are so effective is they fall right in the middle of what’s referred to as the near-infrared window. The reason why that’s critical is these wavelengths have the unique ability to penetrate deep into human tissue. For example, wavelengths that are shorter than about 600 nanometers tend to be absorbed very quickly by the blood in our tissues, and wavelengths that are longer than about 900 or 1,000 nanometers are absorbed very quickly because of moisture that’s in our tissue. Because of where those two graphs or those two curves come together is really why these wavelengths can penetrate more deeply. One example I like to give of the moisture and how that absorbs the far-infrared wavelengths that we feel is more radiant heat, if you’re out in intense sunshine, you can feel that radiant heat on your skin. If a cloud passes over, the light that you—the visible light outside doesn’t change that dramatically, but you feel that heat getting shut off almost just like a switch. That’s because of the moisture in that cloud is blocking or essentially absorbing those longer wavelengths.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, we showed two wavelengths here. Which ones did you target? You target it purposefully. You were talking about that, but also, one of the things that Joe pointed out—because, of course, I said well, what about this light? What about this light? He said, well, the energy that is put behind it matters as well. That’s something you all targeted to why your light is way more effective than most of the others on the market so the target of the wave length but, also, the energy behind it.
Justin:
Yes. That’s correct. The intensity or a radiance of the light is arguably the most important factor. You could have all the correct wavelengths you want, but if there isn’t enough power behind it, it’s essentially going to be useless for this type of benefit. For those reasons, for example, if you take a light, such as a near-infrared heat lamp that has a broad spectrum of wavelengths, technically, some of those would be in these healing or correct wavelengths, but because the intensity is so low, they’re essentially useless for that purpose. That’s why we designed our devices using LEDs because you can give a very targeted power at these most effective wavelengths.
The units for a radiance, for example, are given in milliwatts per square centimeter, and that can be used to calculate a total energy delivered in joules per square centimeter. If you look at the clinical literature on the research studies for different health challenges, you’ll see ranges of total energy anywhere from 5 joules per square centimeter up to even over 100 joules per square centimeter for deeper tissue benefits. That’s where I think our light really is set apart from other devices on the market. With the Max light that you’ve got, it’s delivering 100 milliwatts per square centimeter at about 6 inches away from the light, which equates to about 6 joules per minute, so with a 10 minutes session, you’re able to get 60 joules per square centimeter, which is a very significant dosage. I think that’s really why we’re getting the results that we are with our customers and the feedback and the help that they’re getting is because they were able to get a significant dosage.
Scott:
Just as a follow up, Dr. Pompa, those two things, those two characteristics were really probably the first two that we tried to optimize for is wavelengths and then power intensity, or irradiance is really the best metric to use. I would just encourage anyone that’s watching or listening to this. If they’re looking at light therapy devices and they want to begin to incorporate this type of therapy into their daily routine, make sure those—you’re looking for those two metrics or those two characteristics. Most companies get the wavelengths right for the most part, but it’s the power, it’s the intensity. Unfortunately, there’s a lot of manufacturers that aren’t transparent with that number. It’s one of the things we try to—we provide up front. It’s because it’s so important.
The analogy is, if you’ve got a water jug and you’re trying to drink a fair amount of water each day and you go fill it up in the morning with a drippy faucet, well, you can accomplish the goal, and fill up your water jug. It’s going to take an hour or two hours. Most people just don’t have the time for that.
Dr. Pompa:
Right. Yeah. That’s what I like. Yeah. I can be in front of it ten minutes. For the skin, even five minutes. You have different products at different price points, talk about that. I’m going to have you talk about that. I have some background noise I got to take care of here. It’s something not in here.
Tell them the products and the different price points. That’s going to be important to people. Then make sure we give the [affiliate] link as well.
Scott:
Yeah. Sure. We’ve got three different sizes of products. All of the components are the same, and so you can get each size with the same wavelength configurations in multiple options. Starting with the sizes first, we’ve got our—it’s for ease of use, I guess, or the easiest thing to remember is small, medium, and large. We call our smallest device the Mini. We call our medium-sized device the Original and then our largest device the Max device.
Just for practical comparisons, Justin and I are about the same height, about 5’10”. All of our devices are designed to hang from a door, so it allows for convenient use and storage. With that Mini device, it will treat from my head to just below my shoulders or so. Something like that. The Original device, the next size up from there, will treat from my head to about my mid-thigh or so so about two-thirds of my body. Then our largest device, the Max, that’s really a true full-body treatment. It will treat from the top of my head down to basically above my ankle, and so it’s a true full-body treatment.
That’s really the only differences between the three models is the three sizes. Now, the first two I mentioned, the Mini and the Original, come with an adjustable pulley device that you can—when hanging from the door, you can adjust the height. If you’re using that medium-sized device and I wanted to treat my upper two-thirds of my body and then I wanted to treat the rest of my legs, I just simply use that pulley device to lower the device while hanging from a door. It’s a pretty simple fix. Beyond the three sizes, then there’s the different wavelength configurations, and so it’s relatively simple. There’s three different options, a wavelength configuration that delivers all red light, so all the LEDs are delivering red light at 660 nanometers. The other option would be all near-infrared, so all the LEDs are delivering near-infrared light at 850 nanometers. Then the most…
Dr. Pompa:
Remind them the difference of those. This is better for skin. This is better for deep.
Scott:
Yeah, exactly. All red is great, primarily for skin health. That’s not to say that it’s not good for deeper tissues. The majority of that energy at that wavelength is being absorbed by your dermis and epidermis, and so it’s great for if you’re just looking to optimize for skin health. The all near-infrared is almost the exact opposite. The majority of that light energy is penetrating deeper into your tissues.
That’s why we came out with that combination configuration of both—it’s literally a 50/50 split between red and near-infrared light, and that’s by far and away our most popular configuration, primarily because it provides a lot of versatility in terms of both superficial and deep penetration of that light. If people are going to invest in a device, most want the versatility that comes with both of those wavelengths, and so that by far and away is our most popular configuration. That’s the one that you’re using, Dr. Pompa, the same thing with Dr. Mercola and Ben, of course, Ben Greenfield that you mentioned earlier. That’s the one that Justin and I both use on a daily basis as well, so it’s definitely our most popular by far.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. I mean, I think some of the other ones are popular, like -inaudible-. I mean, it’s fantastic -inaudible-. It’s about $600. I mean, you can use that in the red frequency and just amazing for that. I’m sure you sell a heck of a lot of those for that reason alone.
Scott:
Yeah. Our smallest device, on that point, is the Joovv Mini. Even though our devices are primarily designed to hang from a door, you don’t necessarily have to use it in that fashion. Our Mini device, it’s pretty—it’s definitely smaller. It’s a lot more portable, and so a lot of our customers will take it with them. If they’ve got a plug-in by the coach or something or maybe even in bed and they’ve got a—they’re dealing with a hip issue, or maybe a knee issue, they’ll just have the device by their side. They’ll treat themselves in that fashion as well. That smallest device is a little bit more portable.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. Yeah, no doubt. Meredith, I know you have a lot of questions because this is something you need.
Meredith:
Yeah. I know. I want to try it. I’m really excited to try it. Of course, I have a lot of questions. I mean, I have some questions as far as implementation practically and then just more on the mechanism of action too. On the show, for example, we talk a lot about the gut-brain-skin connection, and Dr. Pompa, you said one of the doctors who’s staying with you is having just a down day emotionally. I know, physically too, that that really lifted him up. Can you talk a little bit more about how the light when it hits our skin affects our brain and even our microbiome?
Justin:
Sure. Yeah. There’s definitely studies that have shown that there’s cognitive benefits and also reducing stress, so by reducing that oxidative stress levels in the body, you can really help a person calm down and relax. That’s a common theme. If you read through our Reviews tab from our customers, you’ll notice that many customers do report those types of benefits where they’ve had a long day of work, and they get home and are able to use the device for a treatment. They can feel the difference of their body being able to relax and let go of that stress, and it’s really by the body being able to take that energy in.
It’s similar to if you’re on vacation. You’re on the beach, and you’re on the sand relaxing and absorbing the sun’s rays. It’s a very calming effect. That’s a common benefit that people report, for sure.
Meredith:
Is that similar to—for those who have seasonal affective disorder and use light therapy in the winter, is that similar, or are those devices a little bit different?
Justin:
There has been research showing benefits for seasonal affective disorder for photobiomodulation with the wavelengths that we use. Some of the more traditional therapies maybe have used UV wavelengths, but there absolutely is research showing benefits with red and near-infrared as well. They’re very critical wavelengths that are in sunlight, and it certainly is something that people that struggle with that, those types of disorders, will typically notice benefits from.
Meredith:
I know all of you say—so you’re using it daily. Is that something that—do you need to use it daily to see results? Could you use it maybe once or twice a week to see results? Just wondering about what that looks like for those of us who want to get a unit, maybe using it every day would be a little bit too much for a schedule and, also, the best time of day to use it, if you could speak to both of those.
Justin:
Sure. Yeah. There’s a lot of different benefits. It really depends on what specific health challenges people are looking to treat. For example, for skin health, collagen production for example, the benefits that are shown in the clinical studies are typically over 8 to 12 weeks. It just takes time for that collagen to be boosted, and then notice the benefits from that. Typically, those studies are doing treatments at least four to five times a week. We recommend that our customers do it daily because the consistency is critical so that they can see the results. Many people that use it for different benefits such as muscle recovery, for example, they’ll notice the results literally after doing a treatment one or two times.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. I do. Yeah. I can really crush a muscle group, workout hard, where normally I might be sore, and I’ll use it on that particular—right into it. For example, my chest yesterday, I was like—I hadn’t done it in a while. No doubt, I’d be sore. I did it twice, and I barely, if any, have soreness. I know it’s because of that.
Justin:
Very cool.
Scott:
Yeah. On that note, Dr. Pompa, that’s one—that’s actually forced us to change the way we position this device as well. I mean, we’re still fundamentally believers that this should be incorporated into a daily routine for optimal cellular health, and I know you guys are actively promoting that. That’s your thing, which we wholeheartedly agree with, but in addition to that, it’s interesting. We’ve gotten a lot more inbound response from professional athletes. You mentioned someone like Ben Greenfield. It’s a pretty broad range. I mean, everyone from professional hockey players to we’re now—the New York Giants, we’re working with the New York Giants football team. Primarily, because those types of athletes or if you’re active fitness enthusiasts like yourself, you’ll notice the results so much faster post training or post recovery than if you were just using it for skin health. Skin health, those benefits related to skin health typically take a little bit longer to see. Things like the reduction of wrinkles, the reduction of age spots, etc.
Some of that has to do with the fact that we just look at ourselves every day in the mirror, so it’s just harder to notice those more subtle changes. Sure enough, I mean, people do—I mean, it truly does work for skin health. It just takes a little bit longer to see those types of changes. Whereas with the reduction of joint pain, when it comes to muscle recovery, those—even increased testosterone, people tend to notice those changes pretty quickly.
Dr. Pompa:
I can tell you I do. It’s like, yeah, I can, honestly. Even the energy, you can notice that immediately, which is really cool. Yeah. Most of my doctors watch this show, if not all of them, and many others. I believe, today, because of these multiple stressors, this is a tool that needs to be in every office, I mean, every office. Give yourself an advantage, for goodness sakes.
Your patients may not be able to afford one of these amazing units for whatever reason, but my gosh, it’s like put it your office. I mean, five, ten minutes, they can—you put them in front of this light. I promise you. Your results are going to go through the roof. Like I said, this is a biohack into the mitochondria. I think, with the exposures of all these different stressors, add the electromagnetic frequencies and the light, etc., I mean, come on, it’s like this is a no-brainer. It’s a tool today that we need.
Scott:
Yeah. In terms of the mechanism of action, you nailed it early with respect to the ability for these specific wavelengths to break that bond between nitric oxide and cytochrome c oxidase inducing healthy cellular function. When most people think about nitric oxide, they may think it’s—well, that’s great. It is at the right levels, but too much of a free radical—just like any other free radical, too much of is not good. These specific wavelengths induce that cellular healthy—that healthy cellular function. Allows cytochrome c oxidase to induce ATP synthase, which is a precursor to ATP. If you just think about that and inducing normal cellular function, increasing ATP, the benefits are so wide ranging, as we discussed before. That’s why we fundamentally think it’s ideal to incorporate it into your daily routine, if at all possible, just even for proactive or prophylactic reasons.
Dr. Pompa:
No doubt. I agree. With the -inaudible- light, it’s a tool everyone needs, honestly. Go ahead, Meredith.
Meredith:
Yeah. Speaking of daily routine too, I’m thinking from that ancestral health perspective. We want to get sunlight first thing in the morning to positively impact our circadian rhythm, so is the best time of the day to use the unit in the morning?
Justin:
I’d say it most closely mimics sunlight both in the morning hours and as well as in the evening. You’re getting a high dosage of the near-infrared in both of those timeframes without much UV, so I’d say those are the two common time periods that make the most sense. If there’s a day where it’s very cloudy, it’s very difficult to get morning sunlight. Then maybe that’s an optimal time to use that as part of your morning routine. Conversely, if you had a strong workout that day, to follow up your workout with that, whether that’s in the evening or to help you relax and calm down in the evening. Obviously, sunsets have a lot of natural red light in them, and you tend to get a lot more near-infrared wavelengths in the evening as well. I think probably the evening would be maybe the go-to timeframe, but I think either one can definitely have benefits.
Dr. Pompa:
What do the studies show on sleep? I was afraid, like Meredith. I was thinking maybe this isn’t the best thing to do in the evening. However, I wanted to do it because I had a hard workout, and I wanted to do it. I did it, and I noticed that I actually went into a massive deep sleep that night. Are there studies on sleep on that, no?
Scott:
There is. One in particular was conducted on—it’s not a huge study in terms of the number of patients that were involved or the participants that were involved, but there was a group of, I believe, ten Chinese basketball players. They were professional basketball players in China that utilized the same wavelengths that we deliver through our devices, and the qualitative measures that were used with respect to sleep were drastically increased when used before bed or at nighttime. I know, Justin, you use it quite a bit before night. I tend to use it more in the morning. It’s probably something that I’ll probably even—I might even experiment with that treatment algorithm a little bit, and start to incorporate it more at night to help induce better sleep.
Meredith:
Interesting. I’m just wondering too. I mean, it sounds amazing, and I definitely want to try it. Are there contraindications? Are there conditions out there, people who would not be good candidates for this type of therapy?
Justin:
Sure. That’s a great question and one that we get asked often. That’s really the great thing about photobiomodulation is there really are no adverse side effects to be concerned about. There’s probably a few, I guess, gray areas, you could call them. For example, for pregnancy, there hasn’t really been any established research proving that it’s safe for pregnancy, and for that reason, it’s probably best for people to consult with their physician. In talking with Dr. Michael Hamblin, who serves in an advisory role with Joovv, he’s a researcher at Harvard and has himself participated in over 300 published clinical studies using photobiomodulation. He feels quite strongly that it would be beneficial for both the mother and the baby during pregnancy, but to err on the side of caution, that’s probably one you’d maybe want to check with your physician.
By and large, there really are no contraindications. The common question regarding eyesight has already been brought up. That’s a question that we get because, especially with the red LEDs, they are quite bright, perhaps even uncomfortably bright for people when they first start out. That’s something that we’ve obviously done a significant amount of research with with Dr. Hamblin and wanted to verify that those wavelengths are indeed safe, and they actually have been proven for many different types of eye health benefits, whether it’s eyesight or even reversing degenerative eye disorder. Those wavelengths are beneficial for your eyes. I always tell people you can start with your eyes closed during a treatment, and then just gradually open them as they adjust to the intensity of the light.
Meredith:
No tanning bed goggles do we need.
Dr. Pompa:
No googles needed. Yeah. You get used to it, honestly. One of the studies that I had read was—and I think this is significant. Especially as we age, we start losing capillary blood flow. One of the things that these wavelengths do is it helps capillary formation. You actually start making new capillaries, which is massive. As you age, you lose this capillary blood flow, which is 74% of the blood flow. That’s the flow going into your tissues that we want to rejuvenate, keep young, and all these cells, they need blood flow. Talk a little bit about that. That’s a big thing that gets swept away under the rug.
Justin:
It is. Some of the research that I’ve done that I think that plays into why this type of therapy is so effective, there’s a book by Gerald Pollack on The Fourth Phase of Water that speaks to the interaction of light and water in our cells. Part of what drives these functions in terms of blood flow and capillary function are—it’s really an electromagnetic process. What light basically does is it can basically induce a charge. Without getting overly technical, you basically are able to help push this blood flow through your body by giving it this energy in the form of light, and your cells are able to absorb that. Specifically, the water in our cells basically forms a charge because of that light. It’s definitely fascinating. I think we’re just on the cusp of really—the tip of the iceberg of really beginning to understand how these processes work.
Scott:
Another question that often comes up is with respect to cancer. Is this safe for folks that are dealing with cancer? Obviously, we’re not practitioners, so we try to direct people or encourage people to go to their trusted health provider. Dr. Pompa, you probably know. Most practitioners that practice Western medicine, allopathic medicine, are not going to be aware of a lot of these therapies that are backed by legit science. They didn’t learn about them when they went to the med school. We point to them the clinical data, the published clinical literature that’s out there, and then, obviously, encourage them to go to their trusted practitioner.
Cancer is another one of those areas that it’s—just like pregnancy, there’s not—it’s going to be hard to study that patient population. It’s going to be hard to enroll patients with cancer with respect to light therapy, but there is some early evidence that suggests that it’s actually—it’s beneficial in terms of stimulating your immune function, which at the end of the day, that’s critical when you’re dealing with cancerous cells. The evidence is still a little bit unclear. It looks to be pretty positive early on. Again, it’s one of those ones that we try to—we show them the published data, and then encourage them to talk with their trusted physician.
Dr. Pompa:
One of the things that myself as well as most of the doctors that I train, we get a lot of people with unexplainable symptoms, diseases, conditions, right? Their guts are so wrecked that it’s hard to get cellular nutrition in them. This is a way, right? It’s like this is a way we can get so-called cellular nutrition in them by bypassing these mechanisms. I mean, this is a way to affect the mitochondria. It doesn’t matter how wrecked your gut is, and arguably, it’s working on those cells as well.
I mean, it is. It is remarkable. I think that you guys are just so ahead with this device. I know you are. I’ve looked, and I’ve tried all the different units. I have little handheld near-infrareds. Go in here. I probably have four different devices, but by far, your device here, the Joovv light, blows them away. It’s a combination from everything we’re saying, right?
What about the distance? I mean, you said 6 inches for the skin, 10 inches for deep, or even up to 12 inches, I guess. I guess, going too far away limits it. I mean, is six inches better for the skin than ten, I mean, talk about that.
Justin:
Sure. It’s really just a function of the intensity of the light -inaudible-. With the intensity of the light, if you’re 6 inches away, you’re getting about 100 milliwatts per square centimeter, which equates to about 6 joules per minute. If you increase that distance to 12 inches, for example, that’s going to go down to about 80 milliwatts. If you’re up to 2 feet, now it’s down to around 50 milliwatts or less.
Dr. Pompa:
Takes longer.
Justin:
Correct. It basically takes longer. Typically, for a deep tissue treatment and overall optimal health, we would recommend being at that six to eight inches just because you’ll get a higher dosage, and you’re going to get results in a shorter amount of time.
Dr. Pompa:
-inaudible-. Go ahead, Meredith.
Meredith:
Yeah. I’m just thinking too of those who have super inflammatory conditions where their body’s producing a lot of heat. Are these lights producing heat as well where it would just be hot on hot as far as temperature goes?
Dr. Pompa:
It could heat you up internally. I get a little sweat going, but on the surface, I can touch that. I’m telling you by personal experience. I don’t get burned.
Justin:
Yeah. The light itself does not get very warm at all, and the radiant heat that is delivered is quite low. It’s probably similar to sunlight on maybe a 70, 75 degree day. It’s not real intense. It’s much different than longer wavelengths. As I mentioned previously, if you have wavelengths that are longer than 1,000 nanometers, they’re going to feel much more like a radiant heat. Even infrared saunas, for example, are typically using wavelengths that are 3,000 nanometers or longer, and those are really where you’re going to feel the radiant heat from.
In terms of inflammation and reducing inflammation with these wavelengths, that’s really something that has a significant amount of research that’s been conducted as a benefit. For people that are having inflammation in a joint or even muscles, these wavelengths are able to reduce that, really, without delivering much heat. It’s quite different than sauna therapy, for example.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, or infrared. That’s why it’s so hot. That’s my point.
Meredith:
Awesome. I’m excited. I can’t wait to try it. All right, can you guys hear me?
Justin:
Mm-hmm.
Meredith:
Okay, got a little echoing. Maybe, though, before I jump in and ask the final question, if you’re listening, if you’re watching, you want to try the device yourself, go to getjoov.com. That’s G-E-T-E-J-O-O-V.com. You can check out all the three different devices we talked about with the different wavelengths. Choose one that’s going to work for you, and it’s going to be customized for your condition. You can work with your practitioner to figure that out, so I wanted to mention that. To conclude, unless you have anything else, Dr. Pompa, I was going to ask our final question.
Dr. Pompa:
No. That’s it. Go ahead. Fire away.
Meredith:
All right, Scott and Justin, can you share three takeaways for our viewers and listeners on improving their cellular health? It could be in terms of the red light therapy or whatever you’d like to share with our viewers.
Justin:
Sure. I would say first of all is just starting to think about the light that you’re exposing your body and even your eyes to throughout the day. The more natural light that you can get and sunlight in the mornings particularly I think is critical. For those of us, if it’s tricky to get that into your schedule and you need more to supplement that, I think that’s where photobiomodulation can really come in and provide a great resource to help our bodies get the amount of light that we need.
I would say the second one, if I was going to point to something, would be to really—and this is not something that—I know, Dr. Pompa, you’re well-versed in and have given quite a bit of information to your audiences is just reducing and really being aware of your exposure to non-native EMF field. By limiting your exposure to cellular wavelengths, even electrical wavelengths from proximity to different devices, those really put a strain or a drain on your cellular health that can provide a real challenge for your body to overcome.
Dr. Pompa:
Yes.
Scott:
I mean, Justin and I are experimenting with a lot of these same—the same sort of hacks, if you want to call them that. One other one that I’d probably add is just—and Dr. Mercola, actually, his most recent book was on the concept of not just—I think the title is Fat is Food or—I think I’m getting that correct.
Dr. Pompa:
Fat for Fuel.
Scott:
Yeah, Fat for Fuel. I’m sorry. He’s a big believer and has brought forth the concept of cyclical ketosis. I think there’s been so much—people that have brought ketosis to the forefront, but if it’s not cyclical in nature, you may not get the same sort of benefits. That concept as well as some of the stuff that Art De Vany is producing with respect to inducing autophagy, that kind of arena is fascinating to me as well. That’s another one that I’m continuing to explore.
Dr. Pompa:
It’s funny because I brought that concept of that to Joe, actually.
Scott:
Oh, yeah.
Dr. Pompa:
I call it diet variation and feast-famine cycles. I brought that concept to him on a walk. He gives me a—matter of fact, I helped write that chapter in Joe’s book, and Joe’s gracious and gives me a lot of credit for that.
Scott:
I thought I listened to an interview where you guys discuss that. You had given some early ideas or concepts to him for that book. I think that idea, like you just said, of feast or famine, I think that will probably even become that much more prevalent as guys like yourself and other physicians that have a large audience that are promoting these types of concepts—I think that’ll become probably the next—you’re ahead of it.
Dr. Pompa:
I think so. You go to the low-carb events. Everyone’s just been in low-carb for years -inaudible-, and I’m like, no, you’ve got to change it. No culture ever stayed in that ketotic state. You have to cycle it. No doubt about it. Mimicking feast-famine cycles forces an adaptation that does cause autophagy. It causes a hormone optimization at the cell. Again, it’s not rocket science. I’m just looking at these ancient cultures, which I have no doubt been blessed to be able to visit some of them, and go, wait a minute. This is what we need to emulate right here, you know?
Scott:
Yeah. No doubt.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. That’s awesome. Great interview, guys, I mean, great product. I can’t wait to help get it out to the world to you. Appreciate it.
Scott:
Yeah. We appreciate the opportunity. It was great to—thanks for allowing us to be part of the program here.
Justin:
Absolutely.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. Your product fits in with our program. I’ll tell you what, this is cellular health at its finest and at its core.
Scott:
Yeah. No doubt.
Meredith:
Awesome. Yeah, another amazing tool in our cellular healing toolbox. I want to mention Episode 157 is the episode on diet variation, and that was a great show where Dr. Pompa breaks down how to incorporate those feast-famine cycles into your routine and into your regime for health. I just wanted to mention that, but I cannot wait to try Joovv. I know so many of you out there, listeners, viewers, want to try this product so getjoov.com if you want to check it out. Thanks, Scott and Justin. We’re so glad to have you on to explain the science. We’ll look forward to having you at our event coming up in a few months. Thanks, Dr. Pompa, as always so great show. Thanks, everybody.
Justin:
Thank you.
Scott:
All right, thanks.
Meredith:
All right, guys, have a great weekend. We’ll see you next week. Bye-bye.
Justin:
Bye.
