290: Restore Normal Nerve Function With This Inexpensive Therapy

Episode 290: Restore Normal Nerve Function With This Inexpensive Therapy

with Dr. Phil Lenoue

Additional Information:

Practitioners: If you'd like to learn about these injection techniques, you can visit MSKUS.com

Patients: You can contact Dr. Lenoue here or at (509) 951-9253.

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Have you heard of Ultrasound Guided Neurofascial Hydrodissection? If your answer is no, don’t worry, you are in for a treat! Today's guest, Dr. Phil Lenoue III, is here to explain it!

Have you heard of Ultrasound Guided Neurofascial Hydrodissection? Today's guest, Dr. Phil Lenoue III, is here to explain it… and he'll even do a live demo! I've recorded a lot of shows on stem cells, ozone, and PRP, and this is a concept that is way more accessible. It's where you'll start when approaching chronic pain, neuropathies, and fascia (to name a few). This inexpensive therapy will change your world.

Have you heard of Ultrasound Guided Neurofascial Hydrodissection? Today's guest, Dr. Phil Lenoue III, is here to explain it… and he'll even do a live demo! I've recorded a lot of shows on stem cells, ozone, and PRP, and this is a concept that is way more accessible. It's where you'll start when approaching chronic pain, neuropathies, and fascia (to name a few). This inexpensive therapy will change your world.

More about Dr. Phil Lenoue III:

Dr. Phil Lenoue III, DO, RMSK was born and raised in Spokane, WA where he graduated from Gonzaga Prep. He later attended Carroll College in Helena, MT where he played football and was part of 4 national championship teams. He was in the inaugural class at Pacific Northwest University (PNWU) College of Osteopathic Medicine and graduated in 2012. In 2015 Dr. Lenoue III completed his Family Medicine residency in his hometown of Spokane. In 2015 he joined his father to establish Lenoue Integrative Medicine where he has been practicing for over 4 years.

Dr. Lenoue III has extensive training and experience in treating musculoskeletal injuries. He has attended numerous training courses in osteopathic manipulation, diagnostic ultrasound, ultrasound guided injections, prolotherapy, ozone therapy, and regenerative medicine. In 2018, he became an appointed faculty member of MSKUS and earned his RMSK certification earlier this year. Dr. Lenoue III believes in an integrative approach to address the mental, emotional, and spiritual needs of each patient. He loves spending time with his wife, Lindsy, and his daughters, Lainey and Capri. He also enjoys his faith, fitness, fasting, cold water immersion, biohacking and great food.

Transcript:

Dr. Pompa:
Have you ever heard of ultrasound-guided neurofascial hydrodissection? I didn’t think so, but I’ve done a lot of shows on stem cells and PRP, and I even just recently did one of those. Put it all together and you have this concept way cheaper. As a matter of fact, I used to say, Prolozone is where you start before you go to stem cells. This is where you start. Honestly, this inexpensive therapy can change your world. From chronic pain to neuropathies to headache. I mean, so many things we discussed on this show.

I learned a ton and we get to see the doctor who is teaching us inject himself on ultrasound literally live. You’re going to get to see that on the show. Look, I think this is an amazing answer. I don’t know what you know about fascia, but it is the cause of a lot of health problems, a lot of chronic pain, and something so simple as freeing up a nerve from the fascia around it, and wait until you see how easy it is. This is a show. You’re going to want to share a lot of this show, but stay tuned for this episode of Cell TV.

Ashley:
Hello, everyone. Welcome to Cellular Healing TV. I’m Ashley Smith and today we are welcoming Dr. Phil Lenoue III who is an osteopathic physician whose passion is to help patients regain their function and quality of life. An important part of his mission is to teach other healthcare practitioners how to perform diagnostic ultrasound and ultrasound-guided injections. Stay tuned for a live demo later on in the interview. You’re not going to want to miss it. You are really going to enjoy this. I will let you two take it from here. Let’s welcome Dr. Phil and of course, Dr. Pompa. Welcome.

Dr. Pompa:
Thank you, Ashley. Yeah, Dr. Phil. Hi, that just seems to roll off for some reason. I wonder why.

Dr. Lenoue:
Not the first time I’ve heard that.

Dr. Pompa:
Oh, yeah. Exactly. I have never put the third after your name so that was the first for me.

Dr. Lenoue:
Yes, I’ve had some good Phils in front of me.

Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, absolutely. Let’s tell our audience that you and I have known each other now for probably…

Dr. Lenoue:
Over a year now, yeah.

Dr. Pompa:
Over a year.

Dr. Lenoue:
I think just over a year.

Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, because Phil is like me. He seeks out his own experimentation in his own health. Phil, you are a client of mine who just probably saw Cell TV and was like, cellular detox. That’s what I need. That’s why my brain’s not shutting off because I remember when I first spoke to you, it was brain fog, lack of energy, all the things that I would say most people say, gosh, that’s what I have. Let’s reflect back on that because we’ve done a lot together.

Dr. Lenoue:
Yes. After residency, I just noticed that it—I finished residency. There was some transition. I was working at urgent care, working a lot at my new job at my private practice, stretching myself a little bit more thin. I noticed over the next several months, my brain just wasn’t firing the way it used to. I noticed that especially if eat gluten, where before gluten never bothered me, I noticed if I had a beer, it would affect me for two weeks I felt like. I felt like my body was not functioning the way it used to. Fast forward, I kept dealing with this and I was like, okay, how can I help myself. I was like, well, I’ll give up gluten. That actually helped some, but it wasn’t the whole thing.

After dealing with this over a few years, one of my buddies, Sam Lavis who’s a osteopath—he’s in residency now, so he’s an osteopathic physician as well, a good friend of mine. Anyway, he was like, have you heard of Dr. Pompa? He’s amazing. He told me about some of the things that you do, and then me just naturally being curious, was like, oh, I need to Google Dr. Pompa. Then I read your story and I was like, that sounds like me. I was like, I need to—I want to work with him because I like to work with the best.

Dr. Pompa:
Like me, your first symptom started—when you first came here, it was three years ago, so now maybe over four years ago, maybe even closer to five, but it started after you got amalgams out just like me. Am I right on that?

Dr. Lenoue:
Yeah, that’s right. I was so excited, I was like, I need to get this metal out because I knew it wasn’t good for me. I didn’t know that much else about it and so it was just over the course of several months after that, that I really started noticing I’m like, what is going on with my brain? I couldn’t be present. I would be okay if I was in the fasting state, but a lot of times when I ate, I just did not feel good. A lot of food just didn’t settle well with me anymore. I eventually got to the breaking point where I’m like, this is not okay for my wife, my kids, my family, my friends, my patients. I was like, I need better energy, so I was like, I need help. Luckily, I’ve been blessed to be connected with you.

Dr. Pompa:
I always say, look, we all need a coach. It’s like I would say, if I got sick again, I’d hire one of the darn doctors I train just so I get to not have to be stuck in emotional thinking all the time.

Dr. Lenoue:
Yeah. That thinking is powerful.

Dr. Pompa:
Exactly. It’s like, I don’t want to be there, man. You did the right thing. Trust me. Then you also, like myself, ironically enough, later had a mold exposure which of course then you really reacted. Tell a little bit about that.

Dr. Lenoue:
I ended up having mold exposure and I probably had some mold exposure growing up and college and everything like that. Then I ended up having mold exposure in—for an example, we moved into this new house and within a month of moving in, we found a mushroom on the carpet growing. Then we found a puddle in the basement and so then we found that there was three stories of water damage in one side of the house. Then one of our [00:06:27] sliders, they way they formed the cement, the water would actually flow back into the house, and there was no gutters. Once they ripped open the walls, there was like, surprise, there was some black mold and obviously, I realized that didn’t really help my situation at the time.

Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, yeah. No. Look, I say, metals, mold, and hidden infections are the three big neurotoxins where people just lose their lives even healthy people like you. Then you had three root canals as I recall, cavitation. You got a cone beam done.

Dr. Lenoue:
Correct. I actually went to—this is a good lesson for the listeners too. I went to a doctor in town who did a 3D cone beam, but he wasn’t trained on how to read them properly. He said that I looked fine and then I talked with Dr. Pompa and he was like, “You need to go to a guy that knows what he’s talking about.” I was like, “All right. I’ll go over to Seattle.” I went over to Seattle, saw Dr. Panahpour and he found I had six cavitations. I was like, okay, that made sense why I’m not feeling too had nowadays.

I’ve already had four of them. I’m waiting to get my last two done. Actually, I’m doing a specific test right now to see if I can heal them with doing enough 10-pass ozone treatments on my blood before I repeat. Anyways, I’m in the process of healing and each cavitation that I’ve had fixed has made a huge difference in my overall health. Two of them were also parasites. The cultures came back and it was parasites.

Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, right with the DNA test. Literally, they’re taking the infections which I love to do and see what’s in you. Of course, there was bacteria, anaerobic bacteria, but parasites as well.

Dr. Lenoue:
Yeah, all from Honduras back when—2015 when I went there to train for prolotherapy, so very, very grateful that I got connected with the right people for that.

Dr. Pompa:
No, and here’s the thing with that, right. It’s like, how many people doc would be chasing the—they’re trying to get their microbiome right. Trying to kill parasites. Meanwhile, they’re harvesting in places, hidden infections in the oral cavity. Imagine.

Dr. Lenoue:
Yeah, and I did it all the time. I see all these people with weird symptoms, and I have them open their mouth, and they have ten amalgam fillings. I tell them, you need to get that taken care of immediately, but make sure those are dentists with proper protocols and don’t do too much at once. All the things that you teach. Hopefully, I can help guide them through the detox side of that as they go, but I think a lot of people don’t understand how truly important it is to have good mouth health.

Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. I could tell you that for sure. You’re still doing brain phases I’m sure just…

Dr. Lenoue:
Oh, yeah. I love them.

Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. Yes, no doubt. Yeah, I mean, it’s so true. I mean, people get their amalgams out even 25 years they have brain fog and their brain is not working. That [00:09:27] marker is still trapped in the brain so you do something about it. Then you get these other exposures like root canals, mold exposures. It’s this evil triad, man, that just steals people’s lives and they don’t know.

Dr. Lenoue:
Yeah, it’s pretty powerful stuff just what you teach, so I’m very grateful to [00:09:48].

Dr. Pompa:
Let’s talk about what you’re doing there because it’s one of the reasons why I’m so motivated to get your brain back because you’re doing great work, man. Let’s start with the ozone. Why not? On episode 285, I talked about ozone and so many people wrote in. Where can I get these 10-pass ozones? We talked a lot about the high-powered ozone and pulling out the blood, pushing it back in. That’s what [00:10:17]. You can give them a little review then talk about some of the things in your office that you’re doing this ozone for.

Dr. Lenoue:
Yeah. I’ve been doing the ozone for about two and a half years right now. Initially, I was exposed to ozone by actually a family friend, John Stockton, who’s obviously one of the best all-time basketball players. Super nice guy, but anyway, I’m so grateful because then I spent some time with Dr. Jason West down in Pocatello, Idaho.

Dr. Pompa:
I love Jason. I was just with Jason a few weeks ago.

Dr. Lenoue:
Yeah, great guy. Then I ended up—Last May, I went to a conference with Dr. Shallenberger who’s the godfather of ozone in the United States. He’s been doing it for years. Once I went to that course, I started doing a lot more systemic ozone such as rectal ozone for liver function. Just ozone topically. Limb bagging for infections. You can use ozone oil for different skin ailments. The main thing we use is…

Dr. Pompa:
Just so people know, if people don’t know what those things are that doc just mentioned, episode 285, we talked all about all of those things and now you have a place to actually go to get it done. Go ahead, doc.

Dr. Lenoue:
Correct. The main use we have for ozone because we primarily treat musculoskeletal injuries here, and now we’re getting more into the detox, anti-aging side of things, is for musculoskeletal injuries. For example, somebody comes in. They tweaked their knee. They’re like, oh man, my knee is hurting me. What makes us different is that we’re trained in diagnostic ultrasound so we’re able to actually in combination sometimes with MRI and/or x-ray, we are able to diagnose their need with diagnostic ultrasound. Sometimes we’ll actually pick up other tears in maybe their patella or tendon or their MCL that sometimes even the MRI miss.

By doing that, we’ll be able to get a more holistic picture of exactly what’s going on with the patient. What the injury is and how we can actually help them. What we do is we use ultrasound-guided injections to guide the needle right exactly where the injury was. Then we inject it typically with the procaine solution or we’ll use stem cells, placental tissue matrix, PRP. We have a lot of different concoctions that we can use depending on what the patient wants. How quick we want to get them better, but then what we do at the end, we add on the ozone. The ozone just gives more horsepower for whatever we’re using. For example, Hoopfest, I played a three-on-three tournament, tweaked my right knee and injected my knee with ozone the next day it was actually. Then immediately it felt better within two days. I’ve seen some phenomenal results with it.

Dr. Pompa:
My ozone machine is staying right over there. Just telling you a story of how I used it yesterday. I use that thing constantly. Ozone is amazing, but the 10-pass, man, this is how you really push—I mean, you’re taking out your blood, you’re basically mixing it, and putting it back in 10 times, right? I mean, that’s the whole 10-pass, but what that does for your immune system is just amazing in general.

Dr. Lenoue:
Yeah. Dr. Lahodny is one of the physicians over at Austria who has the most experience using the 10-pass. He’s been doing it for I think at least five years. At his clinic, that’s mainly what they do. They treat people with 10-pass. He’ll have these people that have these non-healing ulcers, chronic infections, and some of these patients get better within 48 hours. For people that are a little bit more chronic, such as people with Lyme, MS, Parkinson’s, he’s actually had really good outcomes with a lot of these patients with ongoing treatment.

These people that have more chronic conditions such as Lyme or any kind of Epstein-Barr, chronic viral infections, they typically need more like 10 to 20 treatments, but some of these responses in some of these cases are just miraculous how much better they improve. What it does is it balances out your immune function and it up regulates—what he’s done upregulates and activates your stem cell production and then also upregulates and activates your mitochondrial function which all are great things.

Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, which when I get it done, I feel amazing for days on end. Obviously, it benefits the healthy person or someone struggling to your point. All right. You do a whole heck of a lot more. Tell us about the ultrasound-guided neurofascial basically therapies at your hydrodissection as you call it as well.

Dr. Lenoue:
Yeah. This is a term that came—combination of Dr. Stan Lam out of Hong Kong, Dr. Tom Clark who’s all of our teachers who’s a guru at ultrasound, excellent skills, and one of my colleagues who’s taught me a lot, Dr. Shawn Tierney. Backdrop before we go into that, I’m part of an organization called MSKUS which is an organization that helps teach physicians, other care providers how to do ultrasound-guided injections, how to do diagnostic ultrasound, and they’re largely the reason why I know how to do this. I’m very grateful for all they’ve taught me.

What ultrasound-guided neurofascial hydrodissection is, is we’re actually finding where nerves actually get trapped by the connective tissue from trauma, repetitive use. There’s numerous different things that can happen to that. What happens is, with the ultrasound, we’re able to actually see where that nerve is being compressed, and we’re able to guide the needle very specifically and precisely right above and below. What we do is, it’s called higher dissection because we’re actually using fluids to dissect out those fascial planes both above and below. We create this space, this halo we call it over the nerve, and then we’re able to scan up and down the nerve to make sure that halo is complete.

It works great for things like carpal tunnel syndrome. Any nerve entrapment, [00:16:36] neck pain, people that have neuromas. They’re endless. I know we’ll talk more about the different indications within this talk, but I’ve been amazed at some of that outcomes. For example, we just had a patient today who was in a really bad rear-end car accident. She ended up hurting her whole left brachial plexus, upper thoracic spine, lower cervical spine. Now she’s a NICU nurse and she has a difficulty gripping her fingers. Today, I tested her and she was probably four plus, four out of five strength, and so she couldn’t quite hold those fingers strong all the way tight.

What we did is we ultrasound-guided hydrodissected her brachial plexus up in her neck. We came down and we found that one of her painful spots is where her median nerve which is the nerve that allows you to grip at her elbow was hurting and inflamed on ultrasound. There’s another spot at the pronator tunnel that were all inflamed. What we did is we ultrasound-guided—we hydrodissected brachial plexus first. Her grip was still about the same.

Then we ultrasound-guided and hydrodissected the brachial or the median nerve at the elbow, and immediately she had a five out of five strength. No change at all. No differences side to side. Then we just did—just because I thought she needed it, we also did it at the pronator tunnel. Being able to use the very specific and precise ultrasound to guide that needle right where that nerve entrapment is, you can get some phenomenal results with patients.

Dr. Pompa:
Wow. How long has it been around? I mean…

Dr. Lenoue:
It hasn’t been around really long, and I’m pretty sure Dr. Clark is the one that started it. Knowing him he probably started dabbling 20 years ago, but as far as—I would say only the last five, maybe ten years it started to become more popular because people are realizing how valuable it is and how well it works and how few side effects. I think that one of the coolest things is that the injectate that we typically use, the solution we typically inject is 5% dextrose which is very benign. It’s not like steroids. It’s very safe. It’s very affordable as well. I think that’s one of the things that makes it a very valuable treatment is that you can start with 5% dextrose and then eventually you can go up to PRP or exosomes or things like that if you…

Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. It’s inexpensive. It’s a great place for people to start. Since [00:19:08] jumping right into stem cells or exosomes. It could be used for other things besides neuropathies, a number of related things. I mean, can it just be used for arthritis? What else are you using it for?

Dr. Lenoue:
That’s a great question. We have several patients to—they’re scheduled. Our hope is they don’t have to have knee replacement surgery, but that are scheduled for knee replacement. They said, “Hey, can you just help me for six months get through this.” What we’ll do is we’ll do ultrasound-guided hydrodissection along the nerves, so by the median aspect of their knee. What happens is that those nerves along the inside of your knee, they actually get stuck on those bone spurs. Those bone spurs are actually irritating those nerves. What we do is we go and actually dissect off those nerves and create those fascial planes, create space, and a lot of times they’ll get up the table immediately and say, “Oh, that feels so much better.” Sometimes they don’t need any surgery because you’re taking care of their pain even though their knee still might not look amazing.

We use it a lot of times in combination with the different stem cell-based treatments or PRP or regenerative treatments just because it’s a really important adjunct. I have had some patients who have had [00:20:20] treatments that they’re not actually responding as far as the pain. What they’ve been missing is the hydrodissection. I think that’s a very, very crucial important part of the actual diagnosis and treatment of all these musculoskeletal problems.

Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, that’s interesting because—now look so, fascia, it lays under our skin against our muscle, right? It’s like the turkey that you take the skin off the turkey, that gelatinous connective tissue underneath there. Just so people understand that this fascia—can you use it just for—because I know that fascia after injuries becomes a problem. I mean, can you do it with just the fascia on the muscle as well?

Dr. Lenoue:
Yeah. That’s why we call it neurofascial hydrodissection because in some cases we’re actually specific. We go in right around the nerve, and a lot of times you have these little sensory nerves that you can’t even see within the connective tissue. Let’s say that somebody had a trauma where a—let’s say a chair or a table fell on a leg. What happens is they have direct tissue trauma to that area. What you do is you actually guide the needle underneath that tissue and you separate out those fascial planes where that trauma has occurred.

An example for you would be a patient we had today who has had a hip replacement surgery, and has this huge scar on his lateral thigh. The outside of his thigh. He came in and just had horrible hip pain since his surgery. After three treatments, he’s already doing significantly better. He gets off the table and you could tell how much more comfortable he is. Just because we’re able to actually guide the needle right where that scar tissue is and we break that up. Then the cool thing is that we also do—because we’re trained in using ozone, is that after we hydrodissect, a lot of times what I’ve been doing recently is adding low concentration ozone. I’ve been seeing some amazing results with people and nerve regeneration. Helping strength, helping get rid of help him get rid of tingling, but yeah, it’s a great combo.

Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, I know when people get their scars injected just with procaine, I mean, they go, oh my gosh, like transform—could that be part of the reason is you’re separating that fascia off of the scar?

Dr. Lenoue:
Correct. Yeah, and that’s what I found. I had a patient who—I like to use patient examples because I feel like they paint a better picture. I had a patient for about 10 years. After she had a lumbar fusion, she had this lower abdominal scar and she had lymphedema or swelling of her lower extremities more so on the left side. After two treatments, and all I did is I went deep into her scar tissue, up in her lower abdominal region, and injected 5% dextrose. I believe I used a little bit of ozone there. After two treatments 85% improvement in her lymphedema that she’s had for years. She’s been to the best therapist. She’s tried everything she could use. I think it just shows you a lot of times the scar tissue in these fascial adhesions actually are affecting the lymphatic flow and just your neurovascular symptoms as a whole.

Dr. Pompa:
I couldn’t agree more. How does this neural therapy—I don’t know how many people are familiar with that. How does this differ from that where—I mean, I’ve had it done myself, right, where the stellate ganglion has been injected, the crown of thorns. That’s called neural therapy. How does this differ?

Dr. Lenoue:
Yeah. That’s a great question. In some ways they overlap a lot. For example, if I’m injecting a scar, I’m using very similar neural therapy techniques. For those of you who don’t know, neural therapy is—I believe it was from Germany. Is where you inject scar tissue with procaine and it helps reset the nervous system so that your acupuncture meridians and everything flow and you feel much better. The nice thing about ultrasound is you can be a lot more specific. Rather than saying, hey—if somebody comes in and they say, oh my head just hurts along here. Neural therapy, classically, you just say, oh does it hurts here and just map out with just your feel.

For ultrasound-guided hydrodissection, you can actually see or feel where the actual cervical plexus, where the greater auricular nerve that comes up over your ear comes from, your lesser occipital nerve, your supraclavicular nerve, they all come out of the side of your neck. What we’ll do is rather than hitting all these spots here and here, a lot of times with just one spot, you can actually knock out all the pain to all those nerves immediately.

Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. Wow, that’s incredible. Yeah. I can see that as a huge, huge benefit. Like you said, I mean, I think even people after stem cells still have what they describe as maybe just stiffness. It may be that, right? Maybe they just need that release like that.

Dr. Lenoue:
Yeah, because there’s a lot of good physicians doing this treatment as far as stem cell therapy, but I think a very important part is, let’s think about the nerves. Something that we have learned at our clinic because we have a few other practitioners at work with me, Dr. Pasma and Dr. [00:25:28] who’s going to join us. Both of them are both DOs. We’re all trained in doing this type of treatment, the hydrodissection. Is that, we’ve just learned that being able to think about the nerves that are associated with the joint you’re treating, and then looking at those on ultrasound.

For example, if somebody sprains their ankle, like an inversion sprain where they roll it going inside so the outside of their ankle hurts, there’s actually a nerve that comes right over that ankle joint that is often irritated. What happens is, patients come in and their swelling might be gone, but they’re still like, oh my ankle still hurts. A lot of times with those patients is one treatment and they’re happy. They don’t hurt anymore. They get their proprioception back right away. Sometimes you actually have to treat the ankle joint as well depending on what it looks like and the stability, but it’s pretty phenomenal when you start incorporating this into your practice and how much better patients…

Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, man. You said it. The proprioception gets better because that’s that communication that you just—your brain knows that something’s not right biomechanically so even though the tissues are better, the stem cells may have made a big difference or whatever treatment you did. Okay. I used to say that, hey, start with Prolozone, go to PRP, and then stem cells. I mean, okay, it’s cheaper here and it gets more expensive. If this doesn’t work, go to this. If this doesn’t work, go to this. I mean, this is like perhaps the first and the last thing that you may want to do.

Dr. Lenoue:
Yeah, exactly. I think that’s why it’s important to—when you’re seeing whatever practitioner is you’re seeing, make sure you feel comfortable with them. I know with us we have a unique skill set because we’re trained as DO so we’re all trained in doing manipulation in combination to doing the ultrasound diagnostics and the ultrasound-guided injections. A lot of times if you can just really get a good idea of what exactly the diagnosis is, you can get a way different treatment outcome and a lot of times save people a lot of money too. I have no problem using stem cells or exosomes or placental tissue matrix or PRP. They’re all great things and if people want to get results really fast, sometimes that’s the quickest way to do it, but for some people after a proper exam, you’re just like, hey, you might just need hydrodissection.

I’ll give you another example. I had a guy. I’m thinking about 42-year-old, comes in with bilateral low back pain for years. I think 10, 15 years, and he’s about to go on a trip. First time I met him—we had a mutual chiropractic friend who set us up. I told him, I was like, hey, I know you just met me, but I really think I can help you with your back pain. What we ended up—I’m going to bring a model out for those of you watching. This is the back of the pelvis, and so this is the iliac crest right here which is like your pelvic bone on the back that sticks out. He had pain right here and right here on either side of where the pelvis sticks out on the back side. There’s nerves right there called the superior [00:28:31] nerves that run right along there, and a lot of times they get caught in that fascia or dense connected tissue. Sometimes it can be from trauma, it can be from repetitive overuse.

All we did is we ultrasound-guided—using ultrasound guidance, we put the needle right along there and actually separate it where that nerve was getting trapped within it on both sides. Other than initial numbing poke and a little bit of deeper numbing, he didn’t really feel much. Got up immediately and said, “Hey, it felt great.” I said, “All right, let’s just see how you do.” The numbing’s in at that point, so you don’t know long-term how he’s going to do. He came back six weeks later, and the first thing he asks me is if he could hug me because his pain was minimal since we did that. That’s just a small example of—with proper diagnosis and proper use of this, you can get some amazing results. Sometimes these patients that have tried different regenerative things that haven’t quite worked, it might just be a neurofascial adhesion problem. They just need some of those treatment.

Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. I mean, my son broke his back. Most people watching this probably have been following that, but I’m thinking about that, right? It’s like we’re doing all these amazing things. However, a lot of that trauma it could really affect his fascia which would show up later and trap a lot of nerves. My gosh, I mean, the amount of trauma. This is something I want to get done for him.

Dr. Lenoue:
Yeah, definitely. A common thing I also see is people that have this—they call it quadratus lumborum pain, or just the side of their low back pain. Sometimes they’ll say it hurts in the front of their hip. What we do is we actually—we go in through the side underneath deep to that quadratus lumborum muscle between that muscle and the iliopsoas, your hip flexor muscle. We actually push a bunch of fluid into it where your lumbar comes out. What happens is that actually helps that pain on the back, and then it also helps all that tension to the front. A lot of these patients with tight hip flexors immediately they’ll feel increase motion through that hip flexor.

Dr. Pompa:
Damn, that’s amazing. Like I said, I mean, I think this is where you start. Spokane, Washington, right? We’ll make sure we put—just give people your website, your information, we’ll put it on the screen here. The show notes as well, but give them your information. I know a lot of people are going to want to come see you.

Dr. Lenoue:
Yeah, it would be great. We’d love to help them out.

Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. What’s your website? Give me your…

Dr. Lenoue:
Oh, our website is www.lenoueintegrativemedicine.com, and right now, we’re in the works of revamping it at the moment. You might get the older one or the newer one depending on the [00:31:10].

Dr. Pompa:
We’ll put up a link here for our folks and I don’t know, is there a way for them even to call your office and say, hey, can you help this before—because a lot of…

Dr. Lenoue:
Yeah. We have on our website right now we have a link to Podium. It’s instant-messaging and a lot of the times I’m the one checking that. What you could do is you can write a little message in that little box that pulls up in the corner and just say, hey, can you help us with this problem? Is this something that you would treat? If you’re not quite sure whether or not we can help you. It’s amazing how many patients you could truly help once you start actually looking into these fascial adhesions and nerve problems.

We’ve had several patients who—I had one patient who was scheduled for carpal tunnel surgery, looked us up online. We ended up doing the hydrodissection. A month later, the actual area off her median nerve which is the nerve that’s affecting the carpal tunnel had regulated back to normal size, and her symptoms were significantly improved. We did one more treatment, and after two treatments she was good. It’s really nice to have a different option for people that are like, yeah, on the fence for surgery. The nice thing is there’s no downtime.

Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. No, no, totally.

Dr. Lenoue:
If you’re somebody that doesn’t want to take off work and you want to stay—keep your function, it’s a great way to go.

Dr. Pompa:
How far are you from the airport because I know a lot of people would fly in.

Dr. Lenoue:
We’re probably about, I’d say10 to 15 minutes. We’re pretty close to the airport. We’re right in the Gonzaga University neighborhood, go Zags.

Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. I know nothing about that. However, 10 to 15 minutes from the airport. I’ll tell you what, I want to come get evaluated myself. I helped you. Now you’re going to have to help me.

Dr. Lenoue:
Yeah. I would love to help.

Dr. Pompa:
No, I just want to learn honestly for me at this point. I just like to see it. All right, with that said, I want to see it. You promised you were going to tell us something.

Dr. Lenoue:
It’s true for those of you who are not watching. We’re going to actually do a little demonstration. I’m going to hydrodissect my superficial peroneal nerve which is on the outside of your leg that often can be affected from ankle sprain. I had some ankle sprains when I was younger. My superficial peroneal nerve is much improved but I might as well treat it.

Dr. Pompa:
Let me ask you something on that note, right? My one side [00:33:35] tried everything. He has massively pronated feet, right? We put stem cells, exosomes, PRP and we started—he has this constant jumper’s knee, right, where the pain ran under the patella. Nothing holds because his darn feet are pronated. Could he have some entrapped nerves that are—fascia that…

Dr. Lenoue:
It might be his tibial nerve at his tarsal tunnel. That might be something that’s entrapped there. There’s different things that can be going on because sometimes when you have nerve entrapment it just affects like we talked about in the proprioception. If don’t muscles don’t fire properly, you can’t have normal gait, normal function, and a lot of times immediately patients will regain that.

Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. I’m curious with that. I’m going to have to have you look at it, but all right, I can’t wait to see this.

Dr. Lenoue:
All right. [00:34:38] right now. Sorry about that.

Dr. Pompa:
It’s all right. You’re literally multitasking massively right now. I’m pretty impressed. You’re not a woman so it’s really impressive actually.

Dr. Lenoue:
Awesome. Yes, that definitely might be part of what’s going on there. Can you still hear me?

Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, I can hear you. I’m just waiting to see.

Dr. Lenoue:
All right. [00:35:09] demonstration now. All right. I’m going to put this here. This is my lovely assistant, Kaylie.

Kaylie:
Hello.

Dr. Lenoue:
She’s my medical student right now. We take a lot of students here, so she’s helping me.

Dr. Pompa:
Kaylie is waiting in the wings ready to help. There’s the ultrasound picture pretty soon.

Dr. Lenoue:
Right now, this is a picture of the ultrasound right up here. Pretty soon you’re actually going to see my anatomy. Let me change the setting.

Dr. Pompa:
Everybody loves the doctor who is willing to do his own treatments on himself. We’re watching it live, folks.

Dr. Lenoue:
[00:35:50] are going to be better than that. What you’re going to see is you’re going to see the needle come in from the side. What I’ll do is I’ll actually start looking at my foot, my lower leg.

Dr. Pompa:
Can we scroll down and show you were the injection is and then back up to the…

Dr. Lenoue:
Oh, yeah. Let’s do that. All right. This is my leg, lower leg. This is my ankle. Superficial peroneal nerve, it branches all the way up higher, but the region where we’re going to actually treat is right around here because on me it actually—significantly better than it used to be, but I used to have a lot of swelling right here from my old injury. What you’ll see is I’m going to have the ultrasound right here, and the needle is going to come in this way. What you’re going to see on the screen is actually that needling coming across it going over that nerve. Once I pull up the image, I’ll actually show you what that nerve looks like so that you can actually keep your eye on it and see what I’m doing.

Dr. Pompa:
Oh, wow. That’s awesome. Yeah, because then you know exactly where you’re going and need to go. By the way, I’ve had these superficial injections. I mean, you really barely feel anything. It’s pretty remarkable.

Dr. Lenoue:
Yeah. A lot of times they don’t hurt much at all. It’s just very nice.

Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, which is why you can do it to yourself.

Dr. Lenoue:
Yes, exactly. I’ve done some things to myself that are a little more painful, but I’m glad that this is not one of [00:37:18]. All right. Let me get some alcohol here. Again, we’re going to first go over the diagnostic image of what that looks like.

Dr. Pompa:
You have a little—tell what’s in the solution, 5% dextrose…

Dr. Lenoue:
Yeah. We’re just using 5% dextrose today. That’s it.

Dr. Pompa:
By the way, people would be like, sugar, what? What? What does that do? Okay, it’s the fluid. Number one, it causes the separation. Number two, it does stimulate the body into some healing, the immune system.

Dr. Lenoue:
Yeah. The cool thing about 5% dextrose, what it actually does is it actually resets a specific pain receptor called the TRPV1 receptor that’s responsible for this achy, chronic, irritating pain. It actually sends a signal back to the spinal cord to relax all along the muscles that are along that path. There’s actually some really cool physiology as far as why the 5% dextrose specifically works. On our website, we actually have a paper from the American Academy of Orthopedic Medicine that they’ve created that explains some more the physiology in detail.

Dr. Pompa:
That’s awesome. What are we looking at there?

Dr. Lenoue:
All right. Yes. Right here, you can see…

Dr. Pompa:
It’s a little out of focus where it was before it was in focus. Let’s see if we can…

Dr. Lenoue:
Here let me change the [00:38:47] a little bit. Is that a little better?

Dr. Pompa:
That’s better, yeah.

Dr. Lenoue:
Okay, cool. I just had to change the [00:38:53]. Right here is my fibula and you have peroneal vessels back here.

Dr. Pompa:
Okay. The fibula is the small bone on the lateral.

Dr. Lenoue:
This is the bone, yeah. On the outside of your ankle. This is your little bone on the outside. That’s the fibula. Then when you come across here, this is superficial tissues. This is some subcutaneous fat and superficial fascia. Then when you come here, there’s a little circle right here. That’s my superficial peroneal nerve. It actually should not be that big. A lot of times these are a little harder to actually see, but with mine you can actually see it pretty easily. Then right here you can see an artery down to here at the bottom. That’s the one thing that’s really nice about ultrasound is that you can actually pick up arteries you see. I just put on Doppler so it actually lights up that artery. That way you can do very high-risk procedures, but do it in a very safe manner because [00:39:47].

Dr. Pompa:
If you’re in the upper cervical area you can spot the carotid pretty easy.

Dr. Lenoue:
Correct. Yeah. If I’m doing stellate ganglion blocks or anything like that, you know exactly where the blood flow is so that you can be very safe with the patients and be very precise in where you’re putting the solution. Right here, yes, you can see the fibula and then right here you can actually see the little superficial peroneal nerve. What you’re going to see is you’re going to actually see the needle. I think I’m going to come from this side. You’re going to see the needle come from the left side and then you’re going to see it open up. I’m going to go below and then above those fascial planes so that you can see that actual hydrodissection in motion.

Dr. Pompa:
Can’t wait. This is fun.

Dr. Lenoue:
Any question? Any questions before we start?

Dr. Pompa:
No, I’m excited. This is fun stuff for me.

Dr. Lenoue:
I’m excited too with treatment at the same time. Actually, I changed my mind. The needle is going to be coming from the right side of the screen.

Dr. Pompa:
Okay.

Dr. Lenoue:
Can you remove that arrow? You’re going to see—when you’re doing these injections, you got to make sure that the needle is bevel up. All right. You’re going to see from the top right, there’s a needle coming through.

Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, I see it.

Dr. Lenoue:
The [00:41:10].

Dr. Pompa:
Now you’re on the top of the nerve.

Dr. Lenoue:
Yeah. The key is to always see the tip. Now I’m going to go into that fascial plane down below, and then you see how it opened up?

Dr. Pompa:
Oh, yeah.

Dr. Lenoue:
That’s that fascia surrounding that nerve opening up.

Dr. Pompa:
You’re putting in the fluid. That’s what’s opening it up.

Dr. Lenoue:
Yeah. The fluid opens it up. That’s what makes it very gentle. It actually doesn’t hurt very much because a lot of patients don’t love injections, but this out of everything we do is the least painful. Some of the results are pretty miraculous, almost immediately. You can see right there I’m still coming underneath it, putting extra fluid. Then I’m coming back. I can see the tip the whole time. Then what I do is I actually change the bevel up so that the fluid actually pushes down from the needle.

Dr. Pompa:
Oh, yeah.

Dr. Lenoue:
Then I’m coming over the top here.

Dr. Pompa:
Right. Now you’re pushing it down.

Dr. Lenoue:
Correct.

Dr. Pompa:
You separated it off the bottom and now you’re separating it off the top.

Dr. Lenoue:
Yes. I actually feel a cool sensation down into the top of my foot because that’s where that nerve goes. You can see how it’s creating space, the needle. You’re separating out where that needle is right there. You can see that space right there. Then I did a space above and below, and then I just pushed a little extra fluid. Then you can see—you see how if I go up and down, you can see that fluid surrounding that nerve now?

Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. Now if you hit the nerve, what would you feel?

Dr. Lenoue:
You just feel a little tingling. When I first started learning this stuff, I didn’t have quite as much precision about three or four years ago, but now I can get pretty much as close as I want to, and I hardly ever feel anything. The worst thing you’ll feel is a little zap, but it will never cause any problems because you’re being really gentle. Like we talked about before, the fluid is actually creating that space before that nerve. It’s actually functioned the way it was supposed to. Something you can also do, as you can see my needle on the top, I can actually also hydrodissect some of these fascial planes that are superficial. That needle coming across here and then it just opens up some of those other planes.

Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. Now you’re more on the muscular fascia, right?

Dr. Lenoue:
Yeah. A lot of times we’ll treat both things together.

Dr. Pompa:
That’s smart, yeah.

Dr. Lenoue:
You can see that needle coming across here. It’s opening up those planes.

Dr. Pompa:
They say that there’s a nerve plexus that is in the fascia, even under the muscle. I mean, there’s at least some type of very, very small nerve that communicate with the nerve system.

Dr. Lenoue:
Yes. In addition to the little nerves that are within the actual—here, I can take this back. In addition to the little nerves that are around the fascia and in the fascia in the subcutaneous tissue like the fat, you also have nerves that are actually around the nerves. They’re called nervi nervorum. When they’re actually creating space around that nerve, you’re actually helping to reset those little nerves that go to the nerve. Sometimes we’ll actually hydrodissect around arteries too because there’s actually sympathetic nerves around the artery.

Let’s say there was a lot of trauma that in that space that artery itself, you feel like the pulse where you had that trauma doesn’t feel the same where it’s a lot harder. What you do is you actually will hydrodissect around the artery. Obviously, you want to be careful so you don’t make it bleed, but the fluid is what’s actually pushes the space and a lot of times that will actually reset the tone of the artery. Then it will be more like a fluid rhythmic pulsing.

Dr. Pompa:
It’s a simple treatment, but yeah, it’s a big deal. I mean, because when that fascia like that is choking life off to an area and you free that up, it’s like an adjustment, right? It just frees up a life force and the tissues where you could put stem cells or other things, but you have to free that nerve up, you do.

Dr. Lenoue:
Oh, it’s a big deal. I had one of my patients, a 34-year-old guy. He played college baseball. He had no feeling on the outside of his right thigh. It’s called meralgia paresthetica for those of us in the medical field. Anyway, he couldn’t feel his phone vibrate or anything on the right side for three years. As soon as we hydrodissected with just 5% dextrose, he immediately got to feel his phone vibrate in his leg. It’s just pretty amazing stuff.

Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, yeah. That’s awesome. Dr. Phil, this has been a great show. I’m telling you. You’re going to get a lot of calls, I’m sure. We’ll make sure folks—we’ll put his number and his contact in. Ashley will make sure that that’s up on the screen. We’ll make sure it’s also in the show notes. I’m sure you’re getting a lot of calls because there’s a lot of people with a lot of different problems, and you’re 10, 15 minutes from an airport at Spokane, Washington.

Dr. Lenoue:
It’s pretty amazing to help whoever we can.

Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, yeah. Listen, I appreciate you, Dr. Phil and glad that we could help each other out. It’s great.

Dr. Lenoue:
Thank you for this opportunity, and thank you for all those [00:46:57].

Dr. Pompa:
Absolutely.

Ashley:
That’s it for this week. We hope you enjoyed today’s episode. This episode was brought to you by CytoDetox. Please check it out at buycytonow.com. We’ll be back next week and every Friday at 10:00 AM Eastern. We truly appreciate your support. You can always find us at cellularhealing.tv, and please remember to spread the love by liking, subscribing, giving an iTunes review, and sharing the show with anyone you think may benefit from the information heard here. As always, thanks for listening.