Episode 305: How To Build Muscle While Fasting
Author, public speaker, and biohacking coach Siim Land joins me today. He has written several books about intermittent fasting, autophagy, ketosis, and resistance training. We are having an important conversation about how fasting and muscle growth can go hand in hand. There are a lot of common questions and concerns about this topic; from finding that perfect balance of mTOR and autophagy to how much protein is too much – this is an interview you won’t want to miss.
More about Siim Land:
Siim Land is an author, public speaker and biohacking coach. Despite his young age (24), he's written several books about intermittent fasting, autophagy, ketosis and resistance training. Siim has a degree in anthropology and lives in Estonia.
Show Notes:
Follow Siim Land on Instagram!
Download Siim Land's Metabolic Autophagy ebook – for free!
Order Dr. Pompa's Beyond Fasting book – now released!
Fastonic Cellular Molecular Hydrogen – support all forms of fasting with molecular H2!
Transcript:
Dr. Pompa:
You had these questions. How do I intermittent fast with exercise? When is the best time to eat after I exercise? How do I add diet variation into my life so I can live my life as normal? All right, on this episode, we’re going to answer all of these questions and so many more. Even how much protein should I ingest? Here’s another one. If I’m not interested in putting muscle on, is resistive training something that I need? You’re going to learn not only is it something you need but how it’s the key to antiaging. I think more importantly on this episode is you’re going to see a little bit more of how I live my life and the gentleman that I interview here so, really, a lot of information, a lot of questions so many of you had on this episode of CellTV.
Ashley:
Hello, everyone. Welcome to Cellular Healing TV. I’m Ashley Smith, and today we welcome Siim Land, who is an author, public speaker, and biohacking coach. He has written several books about intermittent fasting, autophagy, ketosis, and resistance training. Today he’s here to talk about how fasting and muscle growth go hand in hand. There are a lot of common questions and concerns about this topic, and they will be addressed today. From finding that perfect balance of mTOR and autophagy to how much protein is too much, this is an interview you won’t want to miss. Let’s welcome Siim Land, who is joining us all the way from Estonia, and of course Dr. Pompa, who’s in Park City. Welcome, guys!
Dr. Pompa:
Hi.
Siim:
Hey.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, rarely do I get to interview someone this time of year where it’s colder where they are than it is where I am, although you told me I have more snow. I guess that’s good. It’s not as cold, and I have more snow. Snow can be fun. Listen, this is a topic that not many of us are talking about. I think that’s how you and I connected. We connect on this topic of—well, there’s the groups, right? You have your vegan, vegetarian group that hates this mTOR pathway. Those of you haven’t watched the show, it’s an anabolic pathway that can age you prematurely if you stay in it too long, which is true, and then you have the other side. You have your bodybuilders and workout people who hate autophagy because I’m going to lose muscle. However, you and I agree on that the balance between them is the key.
One of the things I want to talk about today is how do we do this? I mean, I talk about it in my book a lot. I even cite all the studies because I believe the key is going back and forth. The topic today is how do we do this? What does that look like? How much protein? How do I work in resistive training to this? How many fasts? How much time do I spend with either increased protein or calories to stimulate mTOR? Anyway, this is a topic that really is I think something that everyone needs to learn in their life. I believe we were genetically programmed for times of fast or famine, I should I say, and times of feast, which is what stimulates this pathway called mTOR.
Siim, what I just said may have confused some people, right? What the heck are we talking about? Let’s start there. I mean, try to make it more simple than I just said.
Siim:
Yeah, definitely, it’s very common for people to, let’s say, gravitate towards a certain idea in terms of when it comes to nutrition and diet, and a lot of the times, it’s just people are—they get good results by changing up their diet every once in a while. They quit the standard American diet. They go on a vegan diet, and they see some massive improvements in their health, or they go on a keto diet or something. Again, they see improvements. It’s never that this magical diet is the best diet for everyone. It’s the fact that they’re changing their body’s nutritional environment or metabolic status towards a certain direction, and that is allowing their body to start healing itself and to bring it back into balance.
You mentioned a few of these pathways that are constantly affecting this balance in your body such as autophagy and mTOR. Let’s say, for example, if your body is experiencing energy deprivation and starvation, then it’s going to turn on this pathway called autophagy or this process called autophagy. When it’s fed, when it’s eating, it turns on the other side of the coin, which is mTOR, and mTOR is the switch for growth and replication. From an evolutionary perspective or a perspective of survival, then your body can’t really activate those things at the same time because both of them require some resources. The body tries to be as energy efficient as possible in order to survive, and that’s why it has developed these different pathways and censors for directing the energy doors, one or the other. The problem in the modern world is that we’re never really experiencing “famine or starvation.” We are always in this overly fit, abundant state, and like I mentioned earlier, if you’re elevating mTOR all the time, you’re being fed, overfed constantly, then you may just accelerate aging. You will also predispose yourself to more disease and obesity. That’s why, in this modern world, we have to create these scenarios that mimic starvation and mimic some periods of famine so that we would keep our body in this homeostatic balance that we wouldn’t overexpress the anabolism and mTOR.
Dr. Pompa:
Oh, yeah, in my book, I call it diet variation, feast-famine cycling. You’re right. I mean, we have to imitate what our bodies are genetically programmed to do. Look, when you look at whether you improve your muscle function or strength, your digestion, anything, your brain, it’s the principle of adaptation, meaning we create a stress, and if we adapt, we get stronger. We have to create the stresses. You and I right before we got on were talking about going from hot to cold, a sauna, out laying in the snow. Ashley was like you guys are nuts.
From hot to really freezing cold, hot to—what are we doing? We’re creating a stress, and the adaptation improves your immune system. The adaptation improves your hormones. We’re not doing anything different when we’re changing into diet. When we’re going from a pathway of autophagy to mTOR, we’re doing the same thing as hot or cold. Literally, we’re just causing the body to adapt. That’s the principle that Siim and I are following here, and that’s the principle that, really, it holds up under anything.
It’s really cool. I’m using this machine. It’s called an AVACEN, and the whole principle is it heats just part of your blood. Then your hypothalamus that senses your body temperature goes, oh-uh, only part of the blood is heated. It’s going to go—I’m going to go into heat stroke. What does it do? It opens up all of your capillaries and sends blood into every part of your body where it typically normally doesn’t have a lot of blood flow, and it creates this massive healing in your body. All based on stressing the body or at least getting the body to think it’s stressed, and then create this amazing adaptation to where it sends blood out to cool the body is what it’s trying to do, save its life.
All right, Siim, let me back up a second. We’ll tear this thing apart here for people, and I want people to realize, look, we’re going to tell you how to work out with this concept and how to put all these things together. How did you get into this, Siim? What’s your following? You have a big YouTube following out there. How did you land here?
Siim:
Originally, I was just into weightlifting back in high school, and at that time, I was also very curious and did a lot of research about nutrition and diet just to optimize my results and improve my body composition and strength. Just over the course of years I’ve learned about different diets like keto, paleo. I’ve done different versions of carbohydrate loading, intermittent fasting, extended fasting, and I also just started to broadcast those things into my blog, and from that time, it gradually grew into a YouTube channel and a podcast, which we had you on a few weeks ago as well. Yeah, I’ve just become very—almost like a self-experimenter who is researching about these things and sharing it with other people.
Dr. Pompa:
How many followers do you have? You have a big following.
Siim:
Yeah, on YouTube, I have 95,000 subscribers or something, so we’re close to 100,000. Yeah, on other, the social media platforms, I also have—on Instagram, it’s 28,000. The podcast itself also has, I don’t know, 10 to 20,000 followers. Yeah, it’s been gradually growing over the course of years.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, that makes me happy because someone out there is speaking the right thing. In this area, believe me, you have people line up in their camps, man. You have the keto campers, the paleo people. Yeah, I just came up with that, keto campers, paleo people, actually. Then you have your vegan people and your vegetarian people, right? I mean, you have these people that line up on the autophagy side of things. Yet, how few are bringing it all together?
Okay, so let’s talk about it. I think we have a lot of listeners that are intermittent fasting, right? We both know that, intermittent fasting, a lot of people are gravitating even to one meal a day, which I have many days where I eat one meal, but doing too much of even intermittent fasting can produce too much autophagy and, therefore, too much of a catabolic state. It can lower our immunity. Talk a little bit about that, and talk about how you have found to bring balance to that.
Siim:
Yeah, definitely, I think the most common problem with fasting too frequently has to do with the thyroid, so to say, and your metabolic rate. Your thyroid is very vulnerable to stress and especially adrenaline and cortisol. Those things are actually very elevated when you are fasting. Like you said, fasting is a stressor. It’s a positive stressor, but with anything that is good, too much of it can become bad. It can become bad, and if you fast, let’s say, too often, too long all the time, then you will inevitably downregulate your thyroid. That can just slow down your metabolism. That can cause some other hormonal imbalances and, yeah, especially weaken your immune system, so you may get sick.
The way I personally overcome this is I change things up. On most days, I do eat one meal a day over the course of a few hours. On some other days, I just add an additional meal, and I eat two meals a day. It just breaks the pattern, so to say, that allows my body to recover from the fasting and allows me to still keep making progress. That’s an easy way of changing things up, and you can still do some form of fasting. For other people, they may even have to include maybe three meals a day depending on the situation, but the main idea is that you change it up a little bit. You can also change things up with your diet, so for example, I do think that eating somewhat of a low-carb diet that incorporates healthy fats and plenty of protein is a good idea for most people, especially the population that is insulin resistant or they have some sort of metabolic syndrome.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, I agree.
Siim:
At the same time, some carb cycling is also very beneficial because of carbs especially are useful for boosting your thyroid and overcoming this slow metabolism, so to say. Those are actually more effective for overcoming metabolic adaptation and also breaking ketosis. This shift promotes this metabolic flexibility that teaches a body to use both carbs and fats in different situations. Yeah, doing it in cyclical manner also enables your body to maintain its resilience, so to say, so it doesn’t go into this very deprived state of being…
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. Yeah, there’s times where I’m doing very strict low-carb ketosis for months, and then there’s times where I shift over to higher healthy carbohydrates for a time. I call that seasonal variation. What you’re talking about with the intermittent fasting—and again, for new viewers, intermittent fasting just means Siim and I eat in a window, whether it be four hours, six hours, or one meal. That’s intermittent fasting where you’re fasting maybe 15 hours, 20 hours, something every day. To our point, people with thyroid issues, I think, more women, they do better with variation. I find even sometimes three days of more eating or higher healthy carbohydrate eating they seem to need. Do you find the same thing?
Siim:
Yeah, your body has a weight limiting factor for restoring glycogen, so you can’t really fully absorb all the glycogen in one sitting. It has to be done over the course of several hours or several days, for example. Yeah, that’s why a single carbohydrate meal may not be as effective as doing it over several meals.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, no, exactly, throwing in certain days of the week, especially, like you said, for these more hormone, perimenopause, adrenal issues, or thyroid issues, absolutely. You know the problem with it, Siim, though, is that, just like anything else, someone moves to a vegan diet. They feel great, so now they’re always on a vegan diet, right? Someone moves to a paleo diet. They feel great. Now they’re always on a paleo diet, meaning they’re getting too much protein too long. The vegan person’s getting too much autophagy too long, so we stick to where we are.
No different with fasting, intermittent fasting. People do it, and then they realize, oh, my gosh, this is working, finally. Then they shift to even less, less, less, less meals, one meal, and they’re able to do it because they’re getting more used to it, metabolically flexible. They end up eating less and less and less and less, and it leads to destruction. Do you find that it’s hard to get people often times to do the feast days? I have to tell the people the feast days are as important as the fast days. Do you find the same thing?
Siim:
Yeah. I myself am also guilty of it every once in a while. Fasting, once you get used to it, it’s so comfortable. You enjoy the fast, the [14:55], the mental clarity, the feeling of bliss. You just want to do it, but at the same time, I have to remind myself again, yeah, that you had to break it up every once in a while.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, I’m as guilty as you are. Honestly, you get to a point where it’s easier for me just to go about my busy day without eating, and I’m like, oh, my gosh. I, literally, often times have to eat. Now, I may not have that over the holidays. This is something when I get busy during my work week. When you have time off, it’s a little bit easier to remind yourself to eat.
Okay, so let’s bring it to your expertise here, working out. I don’t care if you’re the house mom or the workout enthusiast. This works for you, right? I really want you to give them a really good schedule, those listening, of how to balance this with, okay, intermittent fasting, some feast days, and resistive workouts. If you put all these together, there’s magic here and, yet, so few are putting it all together. Give them an example of how to put your workouts in, how to put your feast days in, and how to put your intermittent fasting in.
Siim:
Yeah, definitely. First of all, I want to back up a little bit of why would you want to do resistance training? The aspect of resistance training, the main goal of that or the main effect is that it promotes muscle growth and also promotes bone density and just general functionality.
Dr. Pompa:
Okay, back up right there, Siim. I’m the sick person watching this. I don’t want muscle growth. I’m the woman who’s like that’s the last thing I want. You and I, that means something else. It means healthy people need muscle growth, right? Even if you want to stay skinny and healthy, you need muscle, right? Explain that a little bit.
Siim:
Yeah, exactly, building muscle isn’t about bodybuilding and going to the stage in bikinis. It’s about actually creating this lean muscle tissue that is functional, and it’s just making you more healthier. Muscle as an organ, also as a tissue is very healthy for improving your glucose tolerance, increases insulin sensitivity. It just improves even your cognitive functioning as well as just antiaging. Muscle is very critical for slowing down the aging process, so as you get older, your muscle mass is going to inevitably start to deteriorate. That also becomes a—it’s also going to become an increasingly more problem as you get older. The less muscle you have, the faster you’re going to age, and the faster you age, the less muscle you’re going to have. It’s a vicious cycle, in a sense.
Dr. Pompa:
Now you have everyone’s attention. We all need good quality muscle, so let’s put the program together.
Siim:
True, so you do it with—the best form of doing it is with weights. That has just shown over the course of decades that some form of weightlifting at a gym with weights, like free weights, or kettle bells, or something else, that’s the most effective way of doing it.
Dr. Pompa:
What about all the cardio and the aerobics classes and the bikes and all that stuff? You’re saying it’s better than that?
Siim:
Yeah, the cardio exercise is not going to stimulate muscle growth. It targets another completely energy system in the body, which is aerobics, so you’re not going to build any muscle with cardio. You’re only going to burn calories. The difference between resistance training and cardio workouts is that the cardio workouts only promote endurance and they burn calories whereas the resistance training exercise stimulates muscle growth, which is going to speed up your metabolism. It’s also going to enhance your bone density and also improves your hormonal profile. It’s a much more effective way for losing fat as well as slowing down the aging process.
Dr. Pompa:
I just read a study. I’m going to keep your train of thought here, but I’ll just interject this. They’re doing DNA methylation test, which is really a very accurate way of looking at how old you are, really how old you are at the cellular level and even your internal organs. They’re finding that people who do more cardio training actually have the worse scores. I mean, there’s a fine line, and I’m not against cardio. Listen, I was a cyclist. I actually want it, right? The resistive training, to your point, is far better for antiaging. It’s far better if you’re sick. It does better for your hormones. Too much of the other is very easy—especially if you’re already not adapting to stress, too much of the cardio could create more of an oxidative stress, but go ahead.
Siim:
Definitely, yeah. I myself, I work out with my own bodyweight. I do calisthenics on most days, but I also go to the gym two times a week where I do actual weights and heavier loads. When you look at the research, then, generally, two to three times a week of resistance training seems to be the minimum and seems to be the bare minimum for the optimal dose.
Dr. Pompa:
That’s what I do.
Siim:
You can also do it more frequently, but most people, let’s say, who are just exercising for their health and antiaging, then they don’t really want to do any more than that either, which is fine. You can just go to the gym and work out three times a week. Generally, it’s better to target full body compound movements that target multiple joints, and they also stimulate the entire body. They’re more effective in terms of the actual response that you get from the exercise. The biceps curl is also almost like the cardio workout of the resistance training. Instead of doing the biceps curl or the triceps pushup, you would want to focus more on the bench press or the barbell row. With the bench press, you’re also training your shoulders, your chest, a little bit of your lats, your back, and it strengthens the entire upper body in one movement whereas with the biceps curl you’re only training the biceps and the forearm and so on. You’re going to have to just spend more time doing it, and it’s going to be less effective.
That’s why full body, multi-joint compound lifts, the general powerlifting movements like the bench press, that’s what—the deadlift and the barbell row, those are the big four movements that I think everyone should incorporate in some shape or form. They’re also going to mimic the functional movement that you do in your everyday life. If you teach yourself how to deadlift correctly, then you’re also going to teach yourself how to lift up a bookcase from the floor better, and you’re not going to pull a muscle or something.
Dr. Pompa:
Do you have any examples of some of those that you put together in your website? Where would you point our people to be like, yeah, I want of Siim’s workouts and get some ideas there?
Siim:
Yeah, I do actually have a book, Metabolic Autophagy, that talks about how you combine both intermittent fasting with resistance training. It’s going to teach you how to balance mTOR with autophagy and how do you do it with both the fasting and the training.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, no, exactly, people want to know. People want to be like, okay, just show me what to do. I agree with you. If you’re looking for health and longevity, even two days a week of resistive training can be really amazing. Three, that number is what I do, two or three days. I do other outdoor activities in and around that, but the resistive training, that’s pretty much exactly what I do.
Okay, so then recommend. If we’re doing some of that resistive training—here’s a question I always get. Okay, so we know that we need protein to recover as well. We know this, folks, listening, this mTOR pathway, which is this anabolic pathway, muscle builders or bodybuilders, if you will, they exaggerate these couple things to make more muscle and be in mTOR: increase protein, increase calories, or even increase carbohydrates. Those will stimulate the mTOR pathway, right? The autophagy pathway is decrease calories or fasting and decrease protein, so we have these pathways that we’ve been talking about that are opposite.
Okay, so recovery from workout, how much protein? I mean, there’s always the debate. Again, let’s talk about health. The bodybuilders, they want massive amounts of protein. For our viewers and listeners, we want the optimal health balance. When do I ingest it? Do ingest more on my workout days? Do I ingest less on—give us a guideline with the protein thing.
Siim:
Yeah, definitely, you said it right that protein is very important for muscle growth, and it’s critical for longevity as well. If you’re undereating protein, you’re going at a low-protein diet. Then you may actually end up losing muscle mass, which is going to actually accelerate your aging process, which is the opposite that you want. I don’t think a low-protein diet is a good idea for longevity, and too much of it isn’t good either for the reason that you mentioned. If you look at the research, then they found that the maximum amount of—or the optimal amount of protein for muscle growth that maximizes muscle growth is around 0.8 grams per pound of lean body mass up to 1.2 grams per pound of lean body mass. That’s the upper limit that you wouldn’t see any increasing effect going beyond that. Generally, that’s the amount that is recommended for people who are very physically active. They work out three to five times a week or something. For the general population who just wants to be healthy, I would say that it’s slightly less. Maybe it can be—at minimum, I would still recommend 0.6 grams per pound of lean body mass and upward to 0.8, somewhere in there.
Dr. Pompa:
Give us an example for 125 pound person and a 150 pound person. It might be easier for 150.
Siim:
Yeah, for example, if a person is 120 pounds or 130 pounds, then at minimum I would say that 100 grams of protein per day is a good idea and upwards, like 120 grams upwards. You don’t need to go beyond one gram per pound of bodyweight. For example, if someone is 150 pounds, then the minimum for them is 125 grams and upward to 150 grams or something that—if you look at the RDA, the RDA…
Dr. Pompa:
On the lower scale of things, it would be actually lower. That was around that .8 number there, wasn’t it?
Siim:
Yeah, that’s true. If your person were aiming for 0.6, then I will say maybe 100 grams or something again.
Dr. Pompa:
For 150 pound person so at a 100 grams, yeah, I think that’s right. Yeah, .8, you’re right, .75 if it’s divided in half. If it’s .5, 150 pound person would be—75 grams of protein would be .5. A little more would be maybe 80, 90, yeah, okay. All right, yeah, I just want people to know what you’re—how we’re calculating that.
Siim:
Yeah, that’s true. I wouldn’t recommend going less than that, especially if you’re doing some form of intermittent fasting.
Dr. Pompa:
No, absolutely.
Siim:
The idea that mTOR accelerates aging, it’s also coming from the perspective of eating six meals a day. That’s why bodybuilders eat six times a day. mTOR also has a limiting factor, so to say. You can’t overstimulate mTOR in one sitting up to a certain threshold. Even if you eat, let’s say, 100 grams of protein in one sitting or 30 grams of protein in one sitting, the mTOR stimulation from that meal is still the same. The body, it’s not going to overstimulate mTOR because it can only absorb a certain amount of protein in one sitting. If you’re doing some form of intermittent fasting, then you don’t really have to worry about the protein that much because your eating frequency is smaller. You’re stimulating mTOR even in a smaller time frame, so you have less problems. You only would have to worry about it if you’re eating the standard American diet with frequent snacks and frequent meals where you’re keeping mTOR and insulin elevated all the time, but with fasting, that’s avoided. You’re protecting yourself against it.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, I just want to repeat what you said. If you’re an intermittent faster who is doing resistive training, the fact is is you probably have a greater risk of getting under protein. Again, remember protein is needed. We want protein to stimulate mTOR because mTOR is why you’re working out. mTOR is needed to make the muscle stronger, right? Again, Siim’s point I think is really well taken. I think today we have a lot of our viewers who are risking too little protein. Because they’re eating a lot of plant base, perhaps, it’s a little harder to get the amount of protein that you’re talking about. You’re better off, when you are eating, making sure you’re getting that amount. Again, just looking at those numbers, staying around that .7, .8 I guess is a healthy range there, so just do the math.
Siim:
It’s also important to emphasize the quality of that protein and the composition of that protein. You mentioned plant-based proteins. They are generally less mTOR stimulating than animal protein. Animal protein contains more of these anabolic amino acids like the branch-chained amino acids and leucine especially. Leucine is the key factor for stimulating mTOR. You can even achieve a higher mTOR response with less protein if the leucine content is higher, and generally, animal protein, especially like eggs or meat, they have more leucine than a plant protein. Let’s say, with fasting, you have also less to worry about when it comes to animal protein in terms of if you’re worried about mTOR, or methionine, or something.
Dr. Pompa:
I think the other point that you said I think is so well taken too is, if you are fasting, intermittent fasting, your risk of eating too much protein becomes much less. To your point, when you’re eating six meals a day, you could actually have the same amount of protein as someone intermittent fasting and have actually more problems stimulating mTOR, right? You have a lot of plant-based people who are eating many meals a day who at the end of the day could actually run into more aging problems than someone eating one or two meals a day. I think that was a really good point.
Siim:
Yeah, you said plant-based people can also experience higher rates of mTOR if they’re eating all the time. Glucose and sugar is also stimulating mTOR and insulin also elevates mTOR. Even if you’re eating a no animal protein diet but you’re doing it very frequently, then you still are not avoiding the constant stimulation of mTOR and accelerated aging.
Dr. Pompa:
Look, I’m not against a vegan diet or a vegetarian diet for short periods of time. You know what I mean. I mean, that’s Siim and I’s point is the problem is that people tend to do these things too long. I’m not against massive mTOR stimulation for short periods of time. With the intermittent fasting, I think the protein conversations are really an important one. I really don’t worry about my protein in a meal because I do intermittent fast. I don’t worry.
People always go, well, how much protein do you get in? It’s like, look, when I work out, I make sure I eat a normal amount of protein in my diet. If you looked at my amount of protein, it’s probably at least 100 to 120 grams of protein at the end of my day, and I get that in 1 or 2 meals even. Typically, I get it in two meals. Probably the days I do one meal I’m getting less, but on the other days, I’m getting more. On my feast days where I really eat a lot, I’m probably getting far more. I hope I am. I mean, I think I’ve figured it out to where I’m getting 150, 200 grams on some of those days purposely. Again, what we’re talking about is doing this feast-famine, high protein.
By the way, Siim, one of the things I’m doing with my—people who are looking to regain their health is I—instead of just doing high carbohydrate days, I have them do high protein days. I am so concerned about their protein for their recovery, and arguably, protein has more to do with their recovery than the carbohydrates often. I like to do high protein days, which stimulates mTOR. I don’t care if you get there—you can get there through carbohydrates. You can get there through calories. You can get there through, obviously, proteins. Protein, calories, carbs, all of it will get you there, but I think, for sick people, I love doing these high protein days.
Siim:
Yeah, that’s true. Protein is very valuable, and even overfeeding on protein doesn’t mean that you’re wasting it away. Let’s say protein can be absorbed over the course of several hours. Even if you are eating or let’s say you’re exceeding your body’s protein requirements in a meal, then your body is going to just slow down the digestion of the protein, and it’s still going to stay in your system for several hours afterwards. Your body’s going to prolong the anabolic response from that, and you’re still absorbing it. You’re not really wasting it away, and it’s very useful, especially if you’re fasting and having this higher pool of amino acids to pull from.
Dr. Pompa:
We spoke a little bit to the person on this side, the autophagy side. Now, what about the people out there that really want to put on muscle? What about the intermittent fasting? Is it better to put muscle on intermittent fasting or the old days of eating five, six meals a day? Which way actually is going to help me hormonally put muscle on?
Siim:
The problem with the bodybuilding advice of eating six meals a day is that that advice comes from people who are taking anabolic steroids. Their hormonal environment is already more prone to muscle growth, and they’re geared towards taking more advantage of that entire eating frequency. Let’s say natural people who are just wanting to building muscle, then for them it’s not that important to have that frequent meals. Of course, eating more often would help the muscle building process, but it’s not detrimental for them to skip meals either. Let’s say the average person can still eat, let’s say, two meals a day and be very successful at building muscle as long the calories and the protein content of the meals is sufficient. Arguably, you would still see a beneficial result in terms of the improved hormonal profile and improved body composition.
I like to see fasting or intermittent fasting where you fast for 16 hours and eat your food within 8 hours. That’s a good lean bulking style of dieting where you’re still eating enough, but you’re also able to maintain relative leanness without getting fat. If you’re trying to really push the envelope, then maybe going towards eating 3 meals a day with the span of maybe 14 hours or something. You don’t need to really go beyond that. You don’t need to eat from the moment you wake up until the moment you go to bed to build muscle.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, no, arguably, that’s where you run into trouble with too much mTOR stimulation. Now, some of the bodybuilders are eating in a window realizing they get this hormone benefit for growth when they are doing fasting. However, they’re pushing a lot of calories in the eating window. Maybe they’re eating three times a day, but they’re eating a lot of calories in the eating window. Does that work? Have you tried that?
Siim:
Yeah, definitely. You can still eat plenty of calories even if it’s in a small eating window and build muscle with it. Sometimes people just have a hard time of achieving that.
Dr. Pompa:
That’s me.
Siim:
Especially if they’re eating a whole foods diet, then it’s very hard to gain weight eating carrots, sweet potatoes, and chicken breast or something. In that case, they can safely just increase the calorie density of their meals. They don’t have to eat bok choy and lettuce or something like that. They can go for the fattier pieces of steak. Maybe add some sweet potatoes. Maybe add some fruit, or some nuts, or something that just have higher calories and help them to achieve a calorie surplus that way.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, exactly, so you’re saying stick to your fat and protein in the eating window. You’re right. Basically, we’re getting the autophagy from the fasting. Let’s say we go 18 hours. Now we’re trying to eat all these calories to gain muscle in the window. You’re simply not hungry half the time, right? It’s like I don’t want to eat another meal, right? If you really bring the quality of protein and fats in, you can pull it off. Again, in the eating window is the mTOR stimulation. That means we either have to increase calories, protein, or carbs so one or the other or all of them to really get that going.
Siim:
One trick also that stimulates appetite is also combining carbs with the protein, and that can also result in a higher anabolic response. If you combine carbohydrates with protein, then you’re also going to raise mTOR and insulin slightly higher. That can also make you more hungrier in some aspects, and also makes it easier for you to overcome this palate fatigue that you may experience by eating in a smaller window.
Dr. Pompa:
Great advice. Bodybuilders have been doing that for years, carbohydrates and protein. It helps deliver the amino acids into the cell better for recovery. Okay, let’s talk about—this is a question we always get. What about meal timing around your workout? The old days, it was like I would run home from the gym if not bring protein with me to make sure I consume protein 20 minutes after my workout, right? Now, hormonally, we know there’s some differences that we’ve discovered along the way for that. Talk about the meal timing around the workouts because that’s probably one of the biggest questions I get.
Siim:
Yeah, definitely. I think it depends a lot on how you’ve been fasting either before or around the workout. If you’re coming from a fasted workout, then it is slightly more important to get the nutrients faster into your system and start the recovery process than it is if you were coming from a fed workout. If you eat before a workout, then you can safely fast for several hours after the workout. You’re still using the nutrients that you got from the first meal. If you are coming from a fasted workout, that can be somewhat more catabolic on your system. You’ve broken down your muscles during the workout, and if you continue to fast afterwards, then that can lead to just additional muscle loss, which is not ideal. In that case, I will suggest maybe trying to eat an hour or two after the workout if you’ve been fasting before.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, that’s what I do. I try to eat—you still get that growth hormone rise. If you exercise on a fasted state, you’re getting that growth hormone rise, the sensitivity to the hormones. I try to ride that out for an hour or two after and then eat. The debate is this. My friend, Ben Greenfield, we’ve had the conversation, and I find nobody really knows the answer and probably because there’s never been a really good study. When is that optimal time to eat that first meal after you work out in a fasted state? Nobody seems to actually know the answer, and you and I landed in the same place. I like to give that growth hormone a little bit of time. How much time? I don’t know.
Siim:
Yeah, an hour or two is a good amount. Some of the beneficial adaptations you experience from the workout require the rise of cortisol and require the rise of growth hormone. If you suppress cortisol immediately after working out by taking a protein shake or something, then you may not see the optimal results. You need some of that stress to kick in and allow it to do its work.
Dr. Pompa:
Also, I mean, testosterone, the moment you start eating, your testosterone starts going down, right? There’s the time for both. Again, it’s what’s that—ride the hormonal optimization ride, or eat and start providing the protein needed to recover. We land in the same place, but I mean, maybe someone will come along and say a different time later. Maybe it’s different for everybody a little bit. I don’t know.
Siim:
I think, yeah, it depends on the person.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, we got ourselves very fat adapted, so our bodies really go into that state, growth hormone state, rise in testosterone state after a workout but maybe other people perhaps not. I don’t know.
Siim:
Yeah, it’s much easier for your body to deal with fasting if you are fat adapted and in ketosis. You’re going to experience less muscle catabolism, and you’re also going to experience less hunger. Probably, with a keto diet or if you’re fat adapted, then you can ride a wave for longer, and you have less negative side effects. Whereas someone who is a sugar burner, then for them the fasting is just going to cause more damage. They need to repair it more often.
Dr. Pompa:
This is a hard question to ask guys like us because every day is a little bit different. The question is, okay, what’s your average day look like with your workouts, your meals? We almost have to go, okay, well, on a feast day, as I call them, it looks like this. On a fasting day, it looks like this. Try to answer that question as best you can. I know we vary our routines. What does your workout routines look like with your diet?
Siim:
Yeah, well, on, I would say, five days of the week, I’m doing one meal a day with workouts. On those days, I fast probably about 20 hours or something, and I eat my food within 3 hours or somewhere along the lines of that. Sometimes it’s more. Sometimes it’s longer. Yeah, generally, I fast throughout the entire day. I consume only coffee or tea. Then, in the afternoon, I’m going to have a resistance training workout with calisthenics or weights.
The only caveat or the only difference that I do is that I actually consume a small amount of protein during the workout in the form of a protein shake. The idea is that, because I’m only eating once a day, I’m still in need of some amino acids in order to protect myself against the catabolism that I would experience during a fasted workout. I consume a small protein shake which is 100 calories doing the workout, and that is also going to…
Dr. Pompa:
What time is that workout, your workout later in the day?
Siim:
It’s in the afternoon, like around 4 p.m.
Dr. Pompa:
That way you’re getting that pure fast. If you did the shake, you’re going to break your autophagy.
Siim:
Yeah, exactly.
Dr. Pompa:
You’re getting that over there. Yeah, then, technically, you’re eating in a window.
Siim:
Four hours or something, yeah.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, that’s what I do. Most of my eating days are within four hours. Then once I eat, then I eat. I mean, I may eat just whatever.
Siim:
It’s not like this one massive meal. It’s more like a feast over the course of several hours. You have a meal. You wait a little bit, and you continue eating. It is somewhat difficult to stuff yourself with all of the calories. If you extend the window, then it’s going to be somewhat easier.
Dr. Pompa:
That’s exactly what I do, and I witnessed that when I visited a tribe in Africa. When they started eating, they just ate, right? Like you said, it’s not like that they sat down to one meal. They had a very festive time of eating, and it was not just necessarily the one big meal. Of course, I’ll eat even up to the big meal. It’s like I just eat a little bit, little bit, little bit. Then I’ll eat maybe a big meal.
I do. I have a three, four hour eating window. It’s not like I sit in my kitchen and eat that whole time, but I start the eating process. I go do something else. I eat a little bit more. I go do something else. Then I eat my dinner. I’m eating in there.
Okay, so your workouts are a little later. Again, you start that—what about just taking—this is easy for people, and often times, this is what I do when I have them. I’ll take some amino acids when I work out or during that workout just to feed the body right there.
Siim:
Yeah, that’s the same principle. If you were to take those amino acids in the morning, then that would still stop the fasting.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, I don’t want to do that.
Siim:
It will stop the autophagy, yeah. You would only get away with it if you take it during the workout and later in the day.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, exactly. That’s why you push it out, so you can actually do that. Yeah, you push your workout. Most people, I would say they like to work out in the morning. Then you and I wouldn’t like to do—if I do work out early in the morning, I don’t want to do that because I don’t want to break my fasting state, or I just make that a feast day. I make that a day where I do just take in way more calories than protein throughout the whole day. Days I work out early, I try to feast on those days more. I don’t know if you ever do that.
Siim:
Yeah, if you work out in the morning, then break a fast in the noontime or something and have two meals, three meals. You should never confine yourself into a certain specific way of eating. You should always maintain the flexibility and be able to adapt to different situations.
Dr. Pompa:
Another idea, Siim, is, if you’re saying , hey, the only time I can work out is 8 a.m., 7 a.m., who knows, you shift your eating window completely, right? You stop eating, say, at 3 in the afternoon, and your fast isn’t longer. You know what I’m saying? You can move your eating window for whatever works for your workouts or your job. I mean, who knows? You don’t have to do this eating window in the afternoon. You could make a shift.
Siim:
Yeah, that’s a good point, yeah. Arguably, some research says that early times that you are eating is better than later times with eating. Actually, if you compare them, then they’re not going to be—there’s not going to be any difference as long as the hours are matched. The magic comes from this operation of the eating window. Whether that be earlier or later, it doesn’t really matter.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, I’ve played around with it. I’ve had conversations with Jason Fung about this and others where they—well, for people who are metabolically challenged, diabetes or whatnot, it seems that earlier eating does better for them and maybe, but clinically, I don’t know. I tend to just let people say where does it fit? I think you’re right. The magic’s in the fast no matter what, and there’s maybe a little benefit of where your eating window is. I agree with eating too close to bed is destructive for everybody. It disrupts your deep sleep, exactly. Giving yourself four hours before bed, that’s what I do, seems to taper down any negative that would come eating late.
Here’s the thing about eating too early. My argument is this, that we have the dawn effect, meaning, in the morning, your body—cortisol goes up. That wakes us up, the cortisol rise, and then glucose follows cortisol. Then we push glucose out into the systems. If you test your glucose in the morning, it should always be a little bit higher, and that’s why we don’t have appetite. A healthy person doesn’t have appetite. You’re releasing glucose, and you’re going about burning your glucose. For me, it’s like the body almost doesn’t want to eat in the morning. What’s your thoughts on that? There’s debate both side of this.
Siim:
Yeah, I agree with you in the sense that you shouldn’t feel hungry in the morning if you have a healthy, flexible metabolism. You’re coming from an overnight fast. You’re in semi-ketosis already, and that should give you enough energy to start the day and suppress your appetite. It’s definitely not ideal to be eating food if you have a little bit of cortisol and a little bit of blood sugar. Cortisol itself is deemed to be bad, but you actually need that cortisol to kick start the circadian rhythm and to start the day and mobilize the fat. At that point, it’s a good idea to have that cortisol elevated and maybe wait—I would suggest, if you prefer eating early in the morning, then still wait a few hours after waking up to allow the cortisol to go down.
Dr. Pompa:
My morning eaters, that’s what I tell them. Wait and let that cortisol come down, let that glucose come down, and typically, your body will tell you if you get hungry. Siim, this has been a great conversation. I think we really hashed it out on all of the topics: the amount of protein, when to work out, how to eat, how to vary your diet. You and I didn’t know each other before you interviewed me on your social media platform, but we really resonate around this topic. I’m glad there’s a few of us out there.
Siim:
Yeah, I’m also glad to talk with you and, definitely, likewise, spreading the good message with you.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, absolutely. Ashley will connect your media pages where people can watch you and get some workout advice and all that great stuff. Siim, thank you so much for being on Cellular Healing TV.
Siim:
Yeah, it was good talking to you.
Ashley:
That’s it for this week. I hope you enjoyed today’s episode, which was brought to you be Fastonic Molecular Hydrogen. Please check it out at getfastonic.com. We’ll be back next week and every Friday at 10 a.m. Eastern. We truly appreciate your support. You can always find us at cellularhealing.tv, and please remember to spread the love by liking, subscribing, giving an iTunes review, or sharing the show with anyone who may benefit from the information heard here. As always, thanks for listening.
