Today I welcome Dr. Debi Silber; founder of the Post Betrayal Transformation Institute, holistic psychologist, and a health, mindset and personal development expert. She's here to talk about Betrayal and how an unhealed betrayal is impacting our health, work and relationships. This topic fascinates me deeply, and I can't wait to share this conversation with you.
More about Dr. Debi Silber:
Dr. Debi Silber is the founder of the Post Betrayal Transformation Institute and is a holistic psychologist, a health, mindset and personal development expert, the author of the #1 bestselling book: The Unshakable Woman: 4 Steps to Rebuilding Your Body, Mind and Life After a Life Crisis and her newest book: Trust Again. Her recent PhD study on how we experience betrayal made 3 groundbreaking discoveries that changes how long it takes to heal. In addition to being on FOX, CBS, The Dr. Oz Show, TEDx (twice) and more, she’s an award winning speaker, coach and author dedicated to helping people move past their betrayals as well as any other blocks preventing them from the health, work, finances, relationships, confidence and happiness they want most.
- Dr. Debi's book Trust Again – now released!
- Fastonic Cellular Molecular Hydrogen – support all forms of fasting with molecular H2!
- Dr. Pompa's Beyond Fasting – now released!
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Transcript:
Dr. Pompa:
Betrayal, we’ve all heard the word, but could it be why you’re not healing? Could it be why you even got sick in the first place? I always talk about a perfect storm of how we got sick and really going upstream and looking at what these storms are in our life. Oh, man, this is a big one, betrayal. This isn’t, as you’ll find out, the average stressor, and this episode will give us clues if—is why betrayal could be a part of your story. I think one of the best parts about this episode is she really gives us the stages on how to get out, so stay tuned. This one will be one that you might want to share. When you go through it, you’re going to say, okay, this is partly me, but I also know somebody else. Check it out.
Ashley:
Hello, everyone. Welcome to Cellular Healing TV. I’m Ashley Smith, and today we welcome Dr. Debi Silber who is founder of the Post Betrayal Transformation Institute. She’s a holistic psychologist and a health mindset and personal development expert. She’s here to talk about betrayal and how an unhealed betrayal is impacting our health, work, and our relationships. Wow! I cannot wait for this conversation, so let’s get started ad welcome Dr. Debi and, of course, Dr. Pompa to the show. Welcome, both of you.
Dr. Debi:
Thank you, looking forward to our conversation.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, me too. I said even before we got on air here that I’m just so intrigued. I look at my history, and I really wanted my wife to even be on here. I said that just because we have such a story and to impact or to unfold our story on how betrayal is a part of it. I can almost not do it justice. There might be a Part 2 to the show.
Dr. Debi:
I just need an invitation. That works.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, exactly. When we look at people that can’t get well, when we look at people how they get sick, I always see it as a perfect storm. Matter of fact, I train my doctors to unravel the perfect storm in someone’s life, meaning it’s never just physical. It’s physical, chemical, emotional, and there’s typically three stressors that come together. Bam! It happens. This is very specific, betrayal. I think, obviously, we’re going to unravel that today and its emotional impact, of course, but its impact on our physical body and how it could keep us from healing.
It starts with you story. I mean, obviously, you’ve been there. I mean, you’ve been on some major networks. You’ve done two TED Talks on this topic. It’s taken off, #1 best-selling book. Thank you for being here, but share your story.
Dr. Debi:
Of course, thank you, and thank you for just giving me an opportunity to shed light on the subject for those who aren’t—who don’t realize how big of an issue betrayal is. You don’t study something like betrayal because you want to. You study it because you have to, and I was no different. I’ve been in health, mindset, personal development since 1991, and it was my own betrayals. First it was my family, and I’m the most family-oriented person. I didn’t I guess quite learn all the lessons I was meant to learn from that experience, so I had another opportunity. This time it was my husband, blindsided, devastated, what anybody goes through, but I was desperate to understand this. For me, just when I want to learn something, I go to the experts. I go where the information is. How can I learn about this?
Got him out of the house and one of the lessons I learned that was consistent to both of my betrayals was I wasn’t even on my own to-do list. It was about everybody else. I had four kids and six dogs and this thriving practice, but I never took my own needs seriously. One of the first things I did—maybe not what everybody else would do but one of the first things I did was enroll in a PhD program in transpersonal psychology, the psychology of transformation and human potential. I was just obsessed with that. I was changing, and I didn’t quite understand what was happening.
Anyway, it was time to do a study, so I studied betrayal. What holds us back? What helps us heal, and what happens to us physically, mentally, and emotionally when the people closest to us lie, cheat, and deceive? That study led to three groundbreaking discoveries, and I’m happy to share the discoveries and everything that’s happened since.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, and it led to—even to a study that I want you to share, which is part of that. I mean, let’s back up just a moment. We’re saying betrayal. What does that even mean? Why does it hurt? You know what I’m saying? Why is it more impactful than other things? What are we talking about?
Dr. Debi:
I defined it as the breaking of a spoken or unspoken rule. Every relationship has a set of rules. Think about it. I was going to be here today. We were going to meet and chat, and if I didn’t, well, I would’ve betrayed you. I mean, it wouldn’t have devastated you, but the way it works is the more we trust, the more we depend on someone, the bigger the betrayal. For example, a child who’s completely dependent on their parent and that parent does something awful, that’s going to have a different impact than let’s say your coworker taking credit for your idea, still hurts, but it won’t have the same physical, mental, emotional impact to it. It has lots of faces. It could be your best friend telling your secrets, your partner having an affair, your coworker taking credit, your partner taking the company funds. I mean, it’s endless.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, again, you just brought up things we can all go through. There’s some level of scale, meaning— you just said things. It’s like, yeah, happened to me. It happened to me. It happened to me. I mean, is there a building effect, meaning that everyone has betrayals? At what point does it start causing disease, sickness, and non-healing in the body?
Dr. Debi:
Yeah, sure, well, first I’ll tell you how you even know if someone hasn’t healed.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, that’s good, good question.
Dr. Debi:
We see it in health-work relationships. I’ll see it in relationships. I thought about this when you said that. If you have repeat betrayals, it’s an unhealed betrayal. People say all the time, well, why is it that I keep going—I have the same boss, or the same friendships, or the same partner. Is it me? Yes, it is. You haven’t learned whatever it is you’re supposed to learn, so you keep getting opportunities to learn whatever that is. If it’s a repeat betrayal, it’s an unhealed betrayal.
Then there’s the other thing that I see all the time where someone puts that big wall up. They’re like, no, been there, done that. No one’s getting close to me again. They think that’s coming from a place of strength, but no, it’s not. It’s an unhealed betrayal. They’ve been so hurt that they’re just protecting themselves at all costs.
Dr. Pompa:
Does this tie in to some exact physical things? You know what I’m saying?
Dr. Debi:
Oh, yeah.
Dr. Pompa:
In other words, if I was listening to this, I’d be like, well, are there physical symptoms that ties in specifically with this?
Dr. Debi:
Absolutely, out of the three discoveries, one of them was that there is this collection of symptoms so common to betrayal, physical, mental, and emotional. It’s known as post betrayal syndrome. We’ve had over 10,000 people in the last year and a half take the quiz, and I actually pulled some stats I want to share with you. What’s so interesting is we’ve all heard time heals all wounds. I have the proof. When it comes to betrayal, that’s not true. There’s a question on the quiz that reads is there anything else you’d like to share?
Dr. Pompa:
Do we have the—I should ask Ashley this. Do we have the quiz for our viewers to take? How can they access that?
Dr. Debi:
Oh, I could just give—yeah, so the link would be thepbt, as in Post Betrayal Transformation, thepbtinstitute.com/quiz.
Dr. Pompa:
Okay, all right, yeah, I want everyone to talk it, obviously.
Dr. Debi:
There’s a question that reads is there anything else you’d like to share? People say things like my betrayal happened 40 years ago. I can feel the hate. My betrayal happened 35 years ago. I’m unwilling to trust again. My betrayal happened 10 years ago. It feels like it—it felt like it happened yesterday.
I did pull some stats, and I think you’re going to find these really interesting, just a few. Ninety-four percent deal with painful triggers. Now, with triggers, this could be full-blown PTSD symptoms where your body is responding as if it’s happening right there again. We think it’s just reserved for war vets. No, betrayal happens too. Physical, these are just the physical symptoms. Seventy-one percent have low energy. Sixty-eight percent have sleep issues, 63% extreme fatigue, 47% weight changes, and 45% digestive issues, and that’s anything. That’s constipation, diarrhea, IBS, Crohn’s. I mean, you name it, and it makes so much sense.
What I found so interesting about just the gut issues too, think about what the gut does: absorbs, digests, processes food. Isn’t a betrayal difficult to absorb, digest, and process? That’s just that. Then here’s some mental ones. Seventy-eight percent are overwhelmed, 70% disbelief. Sixty-four percent are in shock and 62% unable to concentrate. You just mix the physical with the mental, and you can see how challenging that is.
Now I’m going to throw in some emotional symptoms, the most common. Eighty-eight percent experience extreme sadness and 83% anger. You just mix sadness and anger together, and that could be a lethal combination. Eighty-two percent are hurt. Eighty percent experience anxiety and 79% are stressed. Now, here’s why I wrote the book Trust Again. Eighty-four percent have an inability to trust. Sixty-seven percent prevent themselves from forming deep relationships because they’re afraid of being hurt again. Eighty-two percent find it hard to move forward. Ninety percent want to move forward, and they don’t know how.
Dr. Pompa:
You got a lot of people’s attention I would argue here, okay, so the study revealed some breakthroughs, right?
Dr. Debi:
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Pompa:
My mind, again, I’m thinking as my viewer and listener. It’s like, okay, great, all right, this sounds like it might be me. I’ll take the quiz, but I already know it’s probably me. Okay, what the heck do I do about it? Talk about the study because it did lead to some big breakthroughs that people need to hear.
Dr. Debi:
Yeah, absolutely, so one of them was that there is this post betrayal syndrome. It’s real and it exists. That was one. These are the other two. At first I was studying posttraumatic growth, like the upside of trauma, how that trauma regardless of whatever it is leaves you with a new awareness, perspective, insight, that you didn’t have beforehand. I thought about it, and I said I’ve been through death of a loved one. I’ve been through disease. I had peritonitis. I was in the ICU for 11 days. I know other traumas, but this felt so different.
I didn’t want to assume, so I asked my study participants. I said, if you’ve been through other traumas, does betrayal feel different for you? Hands down unanimously they said, oh, my gosh, it’s a totally different animal. First of all, it needed a new name. The healing of betrayal is now called post betrayal transformation, but here’s why. When you lose, let’s take someone you love, you grieve. You’re sad. You mourn the loss. Life will never be the same, but you don’t necessarily take it personally. Betrayal is personal. You take it personal.
Dr. Pompa:
Okay, that was part of my question. I’m like why is this different? A lot of people have abandonment issues or different—why is this different? I guess the answer is that. It’s so personal. Am I right?
Dr. Debi:
It feels so personal, so you take it so—it feels so intentional, so you take it so personally. Then the entire self has to be completely rebuilt. Rejection, abandonment, confidence, worthiness, belonging, trust, those are huge. They all get shattered. If I were to come up with an equation, it would be posttraumatic growth, like the upside of healing, plus rebuilding the self equals post betrayal transformation. That’s why someone who is completely healed from a betrayal is a worrier. Think about it. This is the person you felt the closest to. This is the person who said you’re safe. I got you. Your level of safety and security is assured, and that’s the very person who shatters it, so there’s a lot to heal from.
The other discovery was that, while we can stay stuck for years, decades, a lifetime and many of us do, if we’re going to heal, we’re going to move through five stages. We also know what happens physically, mentally, and emotionally at every stage, and we know what it takes to move from one to the next, which means now that healing from betrayal is predictable. I’m happy to go through the stages because everyone…
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, I want you to go through the stages. That’s the key to breaking through here, obviously. Let’s do that because I want to give my viewers a vision of what this looks like.
Dr. Debi:
Now, there are so many people probably watching, listening who say, oh, no, mine happened 30, 40 years ago, and I’m telling you, they will be stuck in one particular stage. You’ll see exactly why. Stage 1, this is like a set up stage, and I just saw this with every single study participant. If you imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual, what I saw with everybody was a real heavy lean on the physical and the mental and really neglecting the emotional and the spiritual. What does that look like (looks like we’re really good at thinking and doing and not really prioritizing the feeling and being)? The feeling and being, I mean, that’s where our intuition lies. We turn that down. Easy for that table to topple over if we’re only centered on two legs. That’s the same with us. That’s not to say, if you’re busy, it’s a set up for betrayal. It’s just what I consistently saw.
Stage 2, we’re blindsided. This is the shock, D-day, discovery day, and this is the breakdown of the body, the mind, the world view. One of my study participants said you know what it feels like? It feels like every negative emotion you can experience, getting punched in the gut, and losing a child in a crowd at the same time. It feels like that, shock, total shock. Think about it. When you’ve been shocked, you’ve ignited the stress response. Now you’re headed for every single stress-related symptom, illness, condition, disease.
Your mind is in a complete and total state of chaos and overwhelm. You cannot wrap your mind around what you just learned, and your world view is shattered. Your world view is your mental model. These are the rules. This is how it works. Don’t go there. This person’s safe. In a moment, it’s totally shattered. A new mental model hasn’t been constructed yet, so this is by far the scariest stage.
Think about it. If you were walking down the street and the bottom were to bottom out on you, what would you do? You’d grab hold of anything to stay safe and stay alive. That’s Stage 3. Survival instincts emerge. It’s the most practical stage. If you can’t help me, get out of my way. How will I survive this experience? What do I do? Who can I trust? Where do I go?
Here’s the trap. Once you figured out how to survive, because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma of where you’ve been, you’re like, whoo, okay, I’m good. You haven’t even transformed yet. It’s such a relief to just be alive based on that. Now what happens is you’re not meant to be here long, but because you’re here, you start getting these small self—these secondary gains, these small self-benefits from being here. You get to be right. You get your story. You get someone to blame. You get a target for your anger. You get sympathy from everybody you tell your story to.
Dr. Pompa:
I would argue most people function right here their whole life if they don’t break out of it. It’s safe.
Dr. Debi:
I’m going to get you in so deep so you see why you get—this is where people stay, exactly. You’re 100% right, and this is where they stay. They get so much benefit, and then the mind starts doing things like, well, you know what? Maybe you’re not all that great. Maybe you deserve it, and then it gets even worse. Now you start doing—you’re not happy with your body, with your health, with your relationships, with your finances, with your life. Here’s where you start using things like food, drugs, alcohol, work, TV, keeping busy. You’re not happy, but you don’t think it gets any better than this.
Here’s where you resign yourself to thinking this is good as it gets. I don’t know. I guess I’ll just be okay with it, and when you’re in this place, you could stay there for life. This is the group where there—they’ve gotten so used to being like this with this identity, being in this space. They have no idea there’s a Level 4 and Level—Stage 4 and Stage 5. The people who come to see you for their illness, the majority, they’re in that Stage 2, Stage 3.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, makes sense.
Dr. Debi:
Yeah, so anyway, if you’re willing to let go of some of those benefits and willingness is one of the biggest words here, you can move to Stage 4. Stage 4 is finding and adjusting to a new normal. Here’s acceptance. Here’s where you realize you know what? I cannot undo what happened, but I can control what I do with it. I always liken this to if you’ve ever moved to a new house, office, condo, apartment. You’re stuff isn’t there just yet. All your stuff isn’t there. It’s not quite cozy, but it’s going to be okay. When you’re in this space, you’re turning the stress response down a bit. You’re not physically healing just yet, but you’re not causing the massive damage you were causing in Stage 2 and Stage 3.
What’s so interesting about this stage also is—think about it. If you were moving, you don’t necessarily take everything with you. I saw friendships change here. If your friends weren’t there for you, you’ve outgrown them. If they’re just indulging in low-energy gossip, whatever it is, you don’t have the space for it. You’re on a different level. People say to me all the time, Dr. Debi, is it me? Yes, it is. You’re transforming, and you’ve just outgrown them.
Anyway, when you’re in that space, making it your own, accepting healing, you can move to Stage 5, and that’s healing, rebirth, and a new world view. The body starts to heal. You didn’t have the bandwidth for eating well and exercising, self-love, self-care. You were surviving. Now you do. Your mind, you’re making new rules, new boundaries, new everything, and you have a new world view based on your experience. The four legs of the table, remember in the beginning it was all about the physical and the mental. We’re solidly grounded because now we’re paying attention to the emotional and the spiritual too. Those are the five stages.
Dr. Pompa:
Right, yeah, and what do you see? I mean, how do we bring someone along now? I mean, if I was watching this again, it’s like, okay, great, maybe you’re stuck in 2. Maybe you’re stuck in 3. How do you advance? Can you do it yourself? Do you need help?
Dr. Debi:
I’ll tell you, the study proved—and I saw it just even with my own experience. We need support more than ever, but this is a time we’re the least likely to seek it because there’s so much judgement, so much shame, so much embarrassment. Honestly, that was one of the biggest reasons why I wrote the book. I said, okay, if they’re not going to seek support, let them just in the privacy of their own home at least get a sense of support, but that’s exactly why we created the community. Yeah, I mean, we need that. There are actually three groups in the study who didn’t heal also, and that was a really big factor. Support was key.
What was so interesting too—speaking of health, I know that’s your wheelhouse. There was one group, and this was the group where the betrayer had no consequences. Whether it was because of religious reasons, financial fears, not wanting to break up a family, or just fear period, they tried to overlook it. They tried to put it aside. The only thing I saw in that group was a further deterioration of the relationship, and by far, hands down, that group was the most physically ill.
Dr. Pompa:
Wait, you said the betrayer, I’m going back, had no consequences.
Dr. Debi:
Yeah.
Dr. Pompa:
Therefore, if you are the person betrayed, it’s the person who you feel betrayed you didn’t have consequences? Is that what you’re saying?
Dr. Debi:
Yes.
Dr. Pompa:
Okay, all right, I want to make sure.
Dr. Debi:
When they tried to put it behind them because they just wanted—they wanted to act like everything was okay or whatever. Now, the biggest challenge here and I see this, this is what happened in my own instance. There has got to be this complete and utter death and destruction of the old, of the old relationship, of the old you, and that’s the only way you can rebirth something new. If you’re unwilling to let go of that old, that can’t happen. Rebuilding is always a choice, whether you rebuild yourself and move on. That’s what I did with my family, or if the situation lends itself and you want to, you rebuild something entirely new with the person who hurt you, and my husband I married each other again not long ago.
Dr. Pompa:
Two things, okay, so the betrayer, I mean, wouldn’t most often they be clueless because of their own wounds that even betrayed this person? You know what I’m saying, meaning that so many people are running. They’re like, really? That’s Part 1.
Dr. Debi:
Two types of people. Sometimes a betrayal shocks the person who did the betraying enough to say what the heck was I doing? It wakes them up. Just as the person who’s betrayed is shocked, the person who was the betrayer is shocked, and then their transformation is underway as well. Then the other side of this is that discovery day shows you who you’re really with, so it reveals one of two things.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, right, I mean, evaluate that, especially if it’s a pattern. Okay, but can’t we just change our perception of the situation, the betrayer or the betrayal, meaning if we change our perception our world becomes how we view our world so meaning that I can’t change the way the betrayer looks at it. I can’t convince him or her that they’ve even betrayed me. If there’s no consequence, which I think most often there wouldn’t be for them because they go on with their life, then is it now, okay, I can’t let that affect my life? I have to change the way I view the betrayal and the person who betrayed me. Isn’t that the key?
Dr. Debi:
That’s really important, and what’s most important is—and that’s why anybody who comes into our community, it’s all about the betrayed person healing. They don’t want to do that necessarily because they’re afraid of what’s going to show up. What’s going to happen if they’re at their physical, mental, and emotional best? What usually happens is they’ve completely outgrown their betrayer, so they don’t want to risk that. It’s almost like here, if I do this thing here, when someone’s betrayed, here’s where they started. Our work is to get them to their physical, mental, emotional best, right? What they do is they keep doing this because they don’t want to outgrow that person, but our work is just getting them here. When they are so rock solid here, they’re not moving. Either this person says I better step up my game for real, or they just go their own way. The work is here, or when they’re just staying here, eventually you get this thing where this person’s like who are you? You’re like I’m not the least bit interested in you.
Dr. Pompa:
I guess my brain’s just stuck on this poor person whose betrayer is—because you said so many of them don’t heal. I don’t remember the percentage, but it was a high percent of who don’t heal because the betrayer didn’t have consequences. I’m thinking in my mind, well, crap, it’s like how can we just change the perception of that reality and flip it so it’s not the case? I hate the fact that somebody’s future happiness would be determined by whether there’s consequences from the betrayer or the hurter.
Dr. Debi:
Exactly, and what’s even crazier about it is this person—think about it. They could’ve done something 10, 20, 30, 40-plus years ago they don’t know, care, or even remember, and look at the life that this person is—look at the choices they’re making, the health they have, the things they’re not doing, the levels of intimacy they’re afraid to get to because of what someone did years ago. That’s the biggest crime right there.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, exactly, I mean, I would argue that, most people’s betrayers, they probably moved on then clueless as they are, and you’ll never convince them, nor is it your job to. Again, I think the responsibility then is forget about them. You’ve got to perceive your betrayal is somehow a positive. Somehow it’s like, okay, all right, even if I brought it on, I kept choosing it. There’s a lesson there, but let me be better from it. Is there a process that you help people with that? If we can get them to perceive it differently, we can change their world.
Dr. Debi:
Yeah, oh, absolutely, but sometimes they feel they have too much to lose when they give up that story. That story has become their identity.
Dr. Pompa:
It becomes an identity. I agree. My gosh, what would I be without that story? Believe me; I face that all the time. What do you do with that?
Dr. Debi:
It’s like, for example, I remember I had a woman. She came in. She goes, arms folded, I don’t want to heal. No, you don’t. No, you don’t because you have to give that whole thing up and all the benefits you’re getting. What I try to do is tell them what’s waiting for them when they do.
First of all, think about it. They get a new story. They get a much better story. They get to be the hero or the heroine of their story. They get to stop this accelerated aging that’s going on. They get opportunities they never would’ve had access to because they were so busy focused on the past. They don’t trust, and that’s the biggest issue. They don’t trust themselves. Because they don’t know who they’d be healed, they stay with what’s familiar.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, I mean, I agree. Let’s talk to the people in Stage 3. I think it’s the most dangerous place, right?
Dr. Debi:
It is.
Dr. Pompa:
It is in fact the most functional, if you will, right?
Dr. Debi:
Yes.
Dr. Pompa:
It’s like a functional alcoholic. It’s like they’re going about their life, but yet, they’re absolutely not happy. Here they are, and we want to show them that the future or their even existence could be even better. Talk to that person right now as if you would if they were sitting across from you. There the person is. They’re stuck in 3, and their life is like, well, I’m getting such benefit from all of this. My gosh, these people, I keep away. I mean, you know the stories, right?
Dr. Debi:
Oh, I hear it every single day.
Dr. Pompa:
That person is in front of you right now. What do you say?
Dr. Debi:
I’m going to give you two visuals because it’s going to explain it so well, and this person will see this and feel this. One is I picture this trapeze. You’re holding on. Here’s your Stage 3, holding on for dear life. You even see Stage 4, and you could even grab onto that bar. Think about it. You’re not going anywhere unless you let go of that first hand. They’re determined to hold onto that Stage 3, but it’s only when they let that go can they move forward.
That visual sometimes helps, and I have another one too. This is going to explain it so clearly. I think we think resilience and transformation is the same thing. Bouncing back, restoring, bringing back what was lost, totally different thing. Let’s take this analogy of the house. Let’s say the house needs a boiler, and you get a boiler. That would be resilience, or it needs a roof. You get a roof. That would be resilience.
Here’s trauma and transformation. A tornado comes by, levels the house. New boiler’s not fixing it, and a new roof’s not fixing it. Now, here’s the challenge. You have every right to stand there at the lot where your house once stood and say this is the worst thing that’s ever happened, and you’d be right. You can call over everybody you know. Say isn’t this terrible? They’d all agree.
You actually can mourn your house for the rest of your life. However, if you choose to rebuild the house, why would you build the same one? There’s nothing there. You could build the most magnificent house you ever want. That’s what’s waiting for you when you’re willing to let that go, but they’d rather stare and cry at the house.
Dr. Pompa:
Maybe the danger, though, is rebuilding a new house with new features, but yet, it’s still new features, right?
Dr. Debi:
That’s it.
Dr. Pompa:
It’s not a different foundation, so you end up with a house with the same problems.
Dr. Debi:
That’s it. It’s the fear of the unknown. I always say, when the pain of where you are becomes greater than the fear of the unknown, that’s when you move. Until then, you’re staying in it not because it’s good, only because it’s so familiar. What I found is, as much as that Stage 2, those people find the healing because they’re desperate to feel better, the Stage 3 almost need it more.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, no, I agree. It’s a more dangerous place because you’ve solved your problem. Okay, let’s say this because maybe people are out there. I think we kind of hit this, but it’s worth reviewing, I guess, so symptoms that you haven’t solved your problem and you’re in fact in Stage 3. Physical, emotional, symptoms, what does that person look like?
Dr. Debi:
Yeah, I’ll tell you exactly what that person—let’s call her Sue. This is the person I see every single day. She’s exhausted. She can’t sleep, so she’s taking something to help her sleep. She’s exhausted, so she’s using sugar and caffeine for energy. Now she’s gaining weight. She’s irritable. She can’t focus, so her doctor puts her on mood stabilizers or antianxiety meds. She’s lost her confidence. Now she may not be performing well at whatever work she is, but yet, she doesn’t have the confidence to speak up or to try to do anything differently.
She is just trying to stay alive. She is irritable. Her adrenals have tanked. Her immune system is shot. She’s gaining weight. She is just a shell of herself trying to stay alive.
Dr. Pompa:
Are there other stages of that, meaning that people that are functioning a little bit better but still in it? You know what I’m saying? I mean, do you see different levels of damage, I guess, and is it proportional to their level of betrayal?
Dr. Debi:
It is proportional to their level of betrayal and also their willingness to see things for what they really are. There are instances where they have what to work with if they’re trying to rebuild with that person, and in other cases, it’s a complete and total waste of time. Now, I always say you just need to work on you, period. What I see is the person who is just spending their energy trying to convince, or prove, or whatever it is don’t you see the harm you caused? Don’t you see the damage you caused? I mean, when we’re spending our time, our effort, our attention, it’s like best-case scenario you only have 100%. If you’re spending 40, 50, 60 of it on the other person, you only have what’s left to work on you. They’re spending time in an area that’s not serving them as well.
Dr. Pompa:
How often is it somebody that’s gone in somebody’s life or someone who’s still present in somebody’s life, and they’re still day in, day out functioning with that person? What do you see the most of?
Dr. Debi:
It’s really all different kinds of combinations. There’s no one over another. I mean, it’s very common. If there are no consequences, that person experiences repeat betrayal, repeat betrayal, repeat betrayal. They’re body is tanking. I mean, they are so unhealthy. They’re so spent. They’re so depleted, and they’re taking it personally. As if it weren’t bad enough, they think it’s them.
Dr. Pompa:
Do they have a lot of relationship debris around them?
Dr. Debi:
They do, yeah. Think about it. When it comes to betrayal, you also need to be really careful who you talk with. I know there are so many people who they say, oh, I’ll go see a therapist. Now, that could be great. Talk therapy is a piece of this, but this stuff gets lodged in the cells. I mean, you need to dive deep with healing here. Although that hits one level, if that therapist isn’t highly skilled when it comes to betrayal, it does more harm than good.
It’s also through the lens of the other person. For example, let’s take a husband and wife, and the husband is a typical narcissist. He goes from one affair to another, and the wife confides in her mother-in-law, typical scenario. That mother-in-law just wants to know everything’s okay and wants to know you’re not breaking up. She may say one thing that has—doesn’t even validate what the person who’s been betrayed goes through.
Dr. Pompa:
Oh, yeah, totally.
Dr. Debi:
It’s awful.
Dr. Pompa:
You have to be careful. You answered one of my questions partly there. I was saying do people need a counselor for this? Can they just get your book? Is there a level that you could just get the book or it needs a counselor?
Dr. Debi:
Of course, the book is so helpful but not even necessarily a counselor. You can’t go through this alone. I mean, this is—it’s like, first of all, you’re in a club you never wanted to be in. You need to be with people who will not keep you stuck, who get it, who understand, and who don’t just try to minimize it. That’s not to say to have you drown in it, but it needs to be validated. It needs to be worked through. Think about it. Things like belonging and trust, I mean, those are huge.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, no, absolutely, so I mean, if you asked any counselor, phycologist, oh, do you deal with betrayal, 100% will say, yes, I deal with betrayal, I mean, the same with abandonment. I mean, is there specific questions to ask to make sure you have the right person and how you find the right person for that person looking for the person?
Dr. Debi:
It’s a great question. I mean, honestly, that’s why I certify our coaches and practitioners.
Dr. Pompa:
Okay, right. Where do they get one of those, and how do they find? Give your website now. This should be appropriate.
Dr. Debi:
Yeah, I mean, it was just—it’s all on the site. What I do, though, in our community, we certify coaches and practitioners. Yes, there’s an element of you need to express your story for the sake of doing something with it, so all of our coaches and practitioners are certified in the five stages. They know exactly where someone’s stuck, and they also know how to keep moving them forward.
Dr. Pompa:
All right, so your website, they can find a list of people that would help them. How do they do that?
Dr. Debi:
Within the community so it’s thepbt, as in Post Betrayal Transformation, thepbtinstitute.com. It’s all there.
Dr. Pompa:
All right, and where do they find your book?
Dr. Debi:
The book, Trust Again, you just go right to Amazon. It’s finally back in stock. It was sold out twice before it was ever released. Now I’m hearing it’s back, so grab your copy.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, I mean, honestly, it’s an amazing topic. It really is. What I’ve been called to is people that have unexplainable illnesses. I always say you have to go upstream and figure out what the causes are. Most often the cause is a perfect storm, which betrayal could be one of the storms, and if it is, it sounds like a nasty one.
Dr. Debi:
The good news is they can heal from all of it, all of it.
Dr. Pompa:
I agree. I agree 100%. If you remove the interference, man, the body heals, yeah, absolutely. Debi, thank you for being on. I think you’re going to get a lot of people really seeking out help, and that’s the purpose. That’s why you came on, so thank you for that.
Dr. Debi:
Thank you so much.
Dr. Pompa:
Mm-hmm, absolutely.
Ashley:
That’s it for this week. I hope you enjoyed today’s episode, which was brought to you by Fastonic Molecular Hydrogen. Please check it out at getfastonic.com. We’ll be back next week and every Friday at 10 a.m. Eastern. We truly appreciate your support. You can always find us at cellularhealing.tv, and please remember to spread the love by liking, subscribing, giving an iTunes review, or sharing the show with anyone who may benefit from the information heard here. As always, thanks for listening.
