Transcript of Episode 93: Mold Remediation with Environmental Testing Expert Dan Howard
With Dr. Daniel Pompa, Meredith Dykstra, and special guest Dan Howard.
Meredith:
This is Episode 93 of Cellular Healing TV. We have a really special guest for you today. First of all, of course, we have Dr. Daniel Pompa, cellular healing expert, and we are also welcoming Dan Howard, who is an environmental expert. We’re going to really specifically be sharing a lot on mold, and mold remediation, and some of those issues surrounding that, and just that whole topic. We’re really excited to have Dan Howard on the show today. First of all, though, how you doing, Dr. Pompa?
Dr. Pompa:
I’m going great.
Meredith:
Awesome. Before I introduce Dan Howard, I just wanted to read a little bit about him and share some of his background with you because he’s just such an expert in this mold – or in this field, specifically on mold and just has a lot to share with us, just is a wealth of knowledge on this topic.
Dan Howard is the founder of Howard Testing and Inspections, LLC, which is Pittsburgh’s premier mold and environmental firm. Right here in our area, he’s serving a lot of people. He was raised in and managed the family custom remodeling and construction business. Very few, if any, inspectors can match Dan’s experience and education. He’s certified in Pennsylvania as a radon, pest, and mold assessor, and a allergen assessor, as well.
Dan is nationally recognized as an instructor and lecturer. He’s taught lectures for members for each of the three largest home inspection associations and has taught classes nationally and internationally. So much experience in this field. Thank you so much, Dan, for joining the call. I would just like to welcome you here.
Dan:
It’s my pleasure to be with you.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. I have to say this, Dan: When I practiced in Pittsburgh, you were our go-to guy. If we thought that somebody was having mold issues in their home, man, we called Dan Howard. Matter of fact, I think most of my patients from the past are still using Dan Howard. How do I know that? I get emails. You really have become the expert, not just in that area, but now nationally. We thank you for some of the articles that we have shared of yours on these topics of environmental sickness, which so many people have today. Dan, I have to say most people don’t even realize that their home is making them sick.
One of the first questions I have is what’s going on? Why is mold become an epidemic or even multiple chemical sensitivity? What’s happening with homes today?
Dan:
We really did this to ourselves in the way we’ve changed how construction is. We evolved to not live in things like terrariums. We now build our houses and changed them so they’re very similar. If you remember whenever you were a kid -inaudible-. Throw in a couple teaspoons or tablespoons of water into the little glass clearing, and then in the spring, it’s still green and moldy. When we do what we do in sealing our houses up, particularly on the new -inaudible- with Energy Star ratings, we make it so that there’s no fresh air.
In a normal days of what we do, we breathe, we sweat, perspire, wash, people cook, and all of those things bring moisture into a building, into the area. Just like a terrarium, you need to get that moisture out. When we decided that we were going to make it we didn’t lose any energy, we made it that we weren’t going to let water vapor to escape.
Then the other thing we did is we’re in the world of plastics. We’ve added so many chemicals that just weren’t even invented five, ten, fifteen years ago, and they’re off-gassing into our homes. As I learned from you because we’ve worked -inaudible-. He tried to clean up the mess; I tried to stop the mess from happening in the first place when I worked. Without fresh air, toxins build up, and all of those things are adding up. It isn’t just the mold. It’s the chemicals. It’s all of the other things that we do, and unfortunately – and again, this is in your back yard, but the unhealthy things we eat, that’s even worse.
We’ve tightened our houses. We could consider, we put windows in that don’t leak air, and that’s an improvement. Are we overinsulating? Quick example: Whenever we put our high efficiency furnaces – the old furnaces, whenever you turned them on, the warm air from the house went through the burners out the chimney. Now we get the combustion air from outside, so we’re not even moving air through the house using our furnace. It’s just the laws of the universe. Hot air goes up; it gets cold; it comes down as rain. Isn’t that a beautiful thing? We need to disperse toxins. That’s really important. The old-timers used to say the solution to pollution is dilution. We don’t have any dilution in our house. It’s created all these ways to make people sick. Thank goodness you’re there to fix it.
Dr. Pompa:
You go to Europe and you see these building that are not just hundreds of years old, but oftentimes, thousands. Dan, how could they not have mold, and yet they don’t have mold, right?
Dan:
Oh, yeah. It’s funny. I’ve gone into million-dollar houses, three quarter of a million-dollar houses not even built, and they’re now moldy because of what we’re doing. Pendulum swung, and it swung too far.
Dr. Pompa:
I know Erin Brockovich built a brand new house, literally brand new, and she got sick. She got sick in the home. It was ironic that it was Erin Brockovich.
Dan:
-inaudible-
Dr. Pompa:
Watch the movie. She exposed the whole chemical company, saved a lot of lives, no doubt. Here, she ends up sick because of a new home she built. I’ll tell you, there’s been many of those cases, brand new home. Dan, I think what happens is that they seal it, and a lot of the wood is still carrying all the moisture because whether it rained or what happened, they seal in the moisture, and what happens? Mold forms. I always say that mold’s all around us. All we have to do is add water and give it a little food.
Dan:
Again, there’s laws of the universe. Any place there’s food and water, ice, mountain, deepest sea, North Pole, and South Pole, and all in betwixt, if there’s food and water, it’ll grow. Finished basements, one of those things that we added, it’s the same deal, moisture behind the wall.
Dr. Pompa:
I always say if you have water in your basement, there’s mold. Is that a pretty safe assumption?
Dan:
Either that or else you put so many toxic chemicals in that you’ve killed it, but yes.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. Yeah. Let’s look at that. I know Meredith has some pressing questions, as well. I think that people watching this show – of why we did a past show on mold. Meredith, you could figure out what some of those episodes were to tell the folks. We talked about some testing that we do, a visual contrast sensitivity test and some other tests to look at if someone is biotoxically ill, which mold produces a biotoxin. We’re not talking about mold allergies here. We’re talking about literally a biotoxin that makes people very, very sick.
People watching this are going to say, “Well, gosh, how do I know if my home’s moldy or not?” That’s the thing. We understand we’re creating homes that are sealed in, locked in, locking in moisture, locking in chemicals. Oh, and by the way, we put drywall up, which has cellulose, which is paper on the drywall, which is the perfect food – am I right? – for mold. Just add water? Yeah. Perfect scenario to create mold. However, most people, Dan, rarely ever see mold. If you’ve been in the house long enough, you rarely smell it. I walk in those homes, I go, “This is a mold trap!” I smell it, but yet, you can’t see it, typically. You can’t smell it, typically. How do we know?
Dan:
Again, it’s what you said. Some people can smell it; some people cannot. The good news for me is I’m like the mold dog. I walk in, and because I’ve been doing this so long, I do smell it. The absolute important part is the test part. There’s a whole bunch of different ways to test. The easiest, least expensive test is air testing. What we’re testing for is spores floating in the air. That’s a good indicator.
It’s very similar to if I wanted to know how many tomato plants I had in a field, and I, let’s say, got 100 bushels. Each plant typically makes a bushel of tomatoes, we figure out that we have so much mold. Whenever we do air testing, we get both the amount that’s there and the type. The type tells someone that’s skilled where it’s coming from, where the source is, and gives you information on where to look for what’s going on there.
If we have a situation – you mentioned biotoxins, the endotoxins, mycotoxins, biotoxins that make people sick. We even have testing that can tell that, and it can tell the other chemicals that are in a place, and that’s an expensive form of testing. If we have somebody that’s really ill, it can tell us that. If we have someone with a particular disease, we can very often do viable testing, which means that we put it in a petri dish, and then you can -inaudible- what species a mold is, and you can relate that to the illness.
One of the amazing things that just has me shaking my head is, of course, in Pittsburgh, they shut down one of the country’s best transplant programs because of mold that’s sitting in the intensive care unit, post surgery, and people were dying from it.
Dr. Pompa:
Wow!
Dan:
At one point, they said they have 1,300 people on the waiting list, and they just cancelled the program. The funny thing is is they got it, they knew it, they understood it, but you know, whenever they send people home, they don’t test the houses for mold when they send those patients home. I scratch my head. I’ve had a couple of their patients that actually had mold issues, and it can kill them. The mold, Aspergillus, whenever you’re on immunosuppressant drugs, it grows in your lungs like a petri dish. Testing’s really important, and more critical is having the testing done by somebody who knows the relationship between -inaudible- and the exposure, and what type of mold it is.
Dr. Pompa:
Right. Go ahead, Meredith.
Meredith:
I was just saying are you referring to black mold? That’s the one that we hear a lot about as being fatal. Could you kind of explain the differences?
Dan:
Black mold is the common name attached to Stachybotrys, and that can cross your lungs, and then infect your blood, and of course, cause serious health issues in some people. The mold I was just mentioning that grows like weeds in the lungs of someone who’s had a transplant is Aspergillus. You get the Aspergillus.
There are molds that will, if you’re susceptible to it, the eye tissue -inaudible-. People who have had skin issue for years and it’s a particular type of mold that’s -inaudible-. It goes so far beyond being the black mold that we usually hear about, and there are so many different things that could be triggered, and again, as you folk absolutely know, whenever your immune system has been weakened, you’re subject to all of these. I’ve seen respiratory issues, skin issue, eye issues all related to mold.
I had one client – I’ve had more than one – but one in particular that MS had set in, and they were just amazed at her age, at how fast it was progressing. It turns out that mold Chaetomium can aggravate and trigger that disease. That’s what she had in her home. It wasn’t Stachybotrys; it was the mold Chaetomium. Whenever I got the lab results back, I’m looking, and I’m saying, “Now I know why your doctor’s saying you’re progressing so quickly. Let’s get you out of this. Let’s get this fixed.” It’s a lot more complex that what we know from the news, but what isn’t?
Meredith:
Right.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, no doubt. We call mold is one of the – I call it one of the three amigos, the big boys, that can knock you down so fast that it can lead to major, major diseases, neurodegenerative diseases, autoimmune diseases, and unexplainable illnesses. Heavy metals, mold, and hidden infections, these are the three that really are not your average toxin. Hearing you, seeing these clients of yours with these illnesses, well, it sure doesn’t surprise me because when I see somebody that has unexplainable set of symptoms or conditions, these three things, we look at first, heavy metals, biotoxins from mold or Lyme, and other hidden infections that can occur even in the mouth. Yeah, we get that.
The testing then, there’s one called an ERMI test that people use. It’s looking at the dust and things in the house. You mentioned a different type of air test and even a test that looks at biotoxins. Can we give some names on some of those tests so people at home can write them down?
Dan:
The ERMI test that you mentioned is one that shows a great history of what’s going on in the home, and because you’re collecting the dust, it’s not just what’s in the air today. It’s what you’ve been exposed to over the last couple years -inaudible- top allergen-creating molds, and they -inaudible-. If you have someone that’s been highly allergenic and that’s lived in the home a long time, it’s a great test to use. There’s only four labs in the country that process it. The one that I use is very good at that, EMSL, great test. Air test four traps. What it does is it captures what’s floating in the air.
The best analogy I can give is if I had red balls, blue balls, and green balls, and I throw them into your living room. That’s pretty much a random event. If I count how many are in half the room and multiply it times two, I know how much is in the room. If I take a quarter of the room and multiply it times four, I know how much is in the room. What it does is they have a slide, and it collects a representative sample of so many liters of air on the slide, and from that, they can extrapolate what’s floating in the air today in real time. That’s a great test.
If we have something that is one of the wet molds, and you mentioned Stachybotrys, the mold I mentioned -inaudible-. They hide. They hide behind walls. You almost never see them. They produce very few spores that if I see that type of mold in a place, what I do is I swab that. The problem is that it’s like pond plants are to the plant world. The allergenic ones are more like grass, trees -inaudible- amount of moisture. Those need a tremendous amount of moisture, and they just don’t produce a lot of spores. It’d be like the tomato plant that only made one tomato a year.
We swab that or tape lift it, and then they can look, and they -inaudible- what it is there. That’s what a lot of people think of whenever they think mold testing, but it’s only representative of…
Dr. Pompa:
Right. A lot of the molds you pointed out are behind the walls. How do you know to get there? In other words, great. How do we know that wall? Look at all these walls in my house. How do I figure out what wall to go behind? That means cutting a hole in the drywall, as well. Then you’re visibly looking for it, therefore to test it.
Dan:
Normally, what you would do is if we find some of those hidden molds, first of all, one of the tools we can use is a camera that can sometimes tell us where there’s an accumulation of moisture or high humidity.
Dr. Pompa:
Infrared camera? You look at the wall with an infrared camera?
Dan:
It’s helpful, but it’s not the end story. A good solution is cutting the floor the height of the baseboard, and then you pull that behind, and that’s usually a pretty good indicator of which wall. Then you can expose those and clean those areas. It’s a good starting tool. That’s a physical thing.
If I have an area that I kind of want to know, and I’m suspecting that – for instance, one last week, they had an area for a bathtub. They just closed it off with drywall. We got little tubes. With a 3/8-inch hole, I can shove the tube in and actually get a sample what’s behind the wall. That test works real well.
Again, there’s a whole set of tools that if you have somebody who’s experienced, and knows what to do, and -inaudible- just like any other set of tools. It’s kind of like when someone comes to you. You sort through what’s going on and apply what techniques you do, but you have to start with figuring out what it is they’re reacting to, and then kind of going from there.
Dr. Pompa:
Look, I’m no home inspector. You used to do that for years. I can look at a home and go, “Okay, that wall right there’s in question.” I can see that from the outside, there’s a hill running down. It’s putting water into that wall. It’s only a matter of time before that water’s going to get through. I don’t care what they have on the other side of it because it’s under positive pressure from water. Water wins all the time.
Dan:
-inaudible-
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. I look at a house from – I look at the assessment from the outside first. Then I give it my nose test. Then I can bring, from there, an expert in that would look at it and say, “Okay, these walls are problems. Maybe we should test behind these walls.”
You know, Dan, I think people asking are being like, “Okay, great. You’re in the Pittsburgh area.” How do they find someone that has your expertise in their area? What do they look for?
Dan:
That’s a real good question. I’ve been searching, just like I know that you’ve worked and trained people cross-country. I’ve come across a company -inaudible-, and people can go to my website and get information.
Dr. Pompa:
Your website? Meredith, you can write it down and show it.
Dan:
What it is is they’ve done an excellent job of training people on first, going through the outsides, sorting through what those issues are, going through the inside. Real often, when you just call someone or untrained -inaudible- home inspectors, they come in, they take the air sample. They don’t do the investigation. When I’m in a house, it’s typically two hours or more. They just come in and test. That’s the question you really asked. You said, “You know enough to look around. Why don’t most of the inspectors?”
I’ve actually -inaudible- through their training programs and have given them a set of issues that I look at that they’ve put into a set of software so the people who aren’t experienced at this because there’s no replacement for experience to look for outside water, downspouts, if there’s separation where the driveway goes, and work through the whole thing through the inside. I’m pretty happy with their training program.
Again, I sat and took their class they’re giving to new people just to make sure that what I’m seeing is what I’m seeing. They’re for real. They’re partnered with the National Association of Home Inspectors, and they’re developing a relationship with people that are training. It’s kind of a good system. They’ve got a source of 10,000 inspectors to pick from that go to a good training program. If you weren’t in the Pittsburgh area, that would probably be the best source…
Dr. Pompa:
Okay. Meredith, write down his website, and then maybe we can get that website to write that down.
Dan:
In fact, I think I’ll put on my website all the links that your people can go to to -inaudible-
Dr. Pompa:
All right. Give your website so Meredith can display it.
Dan:
The easy one is PittsburghMoldTesting.com.
Meredith:
Okay, PittsburghMoldTesting.com. We will type that up and have that displayed on the screen, PittsburghMoldTesting.com. Then you’ll have links there to anyone that you would recommend for more information and for someone to find a proper inspector in their area.
Dan:
Absolutely.
Dr. Pompa:
Good.
Dan:
We’ll just do a page.
Dr. Pompa:
I have to say, folks, go to the website. He has great articles there, and there’re some great sources. That’s a really good source for people to educate themselves on these topics, no doubt. Meredith, I know you had a couple other questions, too.
Meredith:
I do. I have a number of questions, actually, if we can backtrack and -inaudible- in the proper order. I do. I just kind of wanted to backtrack, too, when you were talking about the process. I’m wondering, when you’re remediating mold, once you find the mold, discover that it is in the home, how do you clean it? What happens?
Dan:
Again, this is where it gets real tricky, and I really get frustrated, and I know that working with Dr. Pompa, he’s been frustrated with – every morning, when my wife and I go to breakfast, we wipe down the countertop, and wipe down the kitchen table, and all those things. If your approach is to just take the mold and wipe it away, you’ve got the problem that we have tomorrow morning. The activity stays living. You get germs, bacteria, and all types of things on the countertop.
The treatment has to match the need, what the circumstances are, where the mold is there, plus, more importantly, you have – again, -inaudible- experiment, and you have mold growing behind a wall, you’ve got to change the conditions or -inaudible- treatment just like after we wipe down the kitchen counter, the mold will come back. The trick here is to find a remediator who will end up treating it and also addressing the issues that are underlying, which is why it’s important to have an inspector who understands the underlying conditions. This all goes hand in hand.
There are very inexpensive people who will come do -inaudible- called spray and pray. They just put a coat of whatever it is that they are using, one of the chemicals. Some are peroxide-based. One is just TSP -inaudible- trisodium phosphate. You need to have somebody address the underlying issues or you’ll get the same results and someone who will actually treat every area that does. It all starts with the initial assessment, which is, again, what I do. You don’t want somebody coming in and doing a 15-minute, take the test, see you later thing.
Meredith:
You don’t actually do the cleaning of the mold. You just assess it initially, and then someone else comes in and does the cleaning.
Dan:
That’s right. You really don’t want your tester being the remediator. That’s like sending the fox into the henhouse. “Hey, how many hens you got in there?” You just don’t do that.
Dr. Pompa:
No. No, but you’re right. It’s very frustrating, these people, they do. They just come in and wipe the counters, so to speak. “Hey, all the mold’s gone.” It’s like they’ve done nothing to change the cause of why the mold’s there. They’ve done nothing to really even get it deep enough. These mold, the roots go into the cement block, into the wood. You hit it with Clorox on the outside, and arguably, you’ve made your problem worse. The water that’s naturally in Clorox or whatever it is goes down and feeds the roots. You killed the mold on the outside, only to come up with more vengeance later.
I’ve watched that take place, or they come in with their toxic concoctions and start spraying things. People then end up with a new problem. They end up with chemical sensitivity based on the poison they used to kill it. Multiple problems there, Dan. Again, how does somebody find someone who remediates safely? Does that organization have some contacts there?
Dan:
As a -inaudible- organization, I like what they do. Green Home Solutions, they have a pretty good approach to following protocols, and they have – it’s a franchise system, and their training seems darn good. I’ve spoken to their chief science officer, who actually develops for them the protocol. They take the approach of, “Yeah, we need to clean it. We need to change the environment.” I’ll put that up on the links -inaudible- GreenHomeSolutions.com.
Dr. Pompa:
Green what?
Dan:
GreenHomeSolutions.com. I’ve had some good success working with them, and I like what they do. Again, the problem is can you find a name across the country that you know is fairly conscientious, and that’s a tough thing. I’m looking for someone who has good training and cleans up the mess, if they have a franchise.
Dr. Pompa:
One of the things that I look for is do they create a containment? If a company comes in to clean up mold, and you don’t see them putting up plastic walls and tubes coming out that are sucking air out creating a negative pressure so the biotoxins don’t end up in the HVAC and throughout your entire home – if you don’t see this containment setup – in one of the past episodes on mold, we showed Warren’s containment and how it was pulling the – creating this negative air pressure that pulled the stuff out. You can make problems worse.
Dan:
-inaudible-
Dr. Pompa:
I have -inaudible- of people who get more sick after cleaning up mold because they never did it correctly from the beginning. That’s one thing that I look for, whether it’s being done correctly. Are there other things?
Dan:
-inaudible-, and let me give you the analogy so people can picture what’s going on. Do you remember as a kid, the dandelion went from yellow to white?
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah.
Dan:
You blow on it; it went everywhere. That’s what happens when you treat mold, and you need to do a couple things. One of them is containment. That means you put the plastic up, and you keep it from going places. I’ve caught remediators not sealing off the furnace, too. That’s circulating air through the place. That’s step one, containment. Then you need negative air. That’s the exhaust. That’s the exhaust that is the pipe like in the E.T. movie, and you have the plastic, and it pushed the air out the window.
Then you do what’s called air scrubbing. Air scrubbing is you bring in a filter that constantly circulates the air. Think of it like whenever you blew on that white-colored dandelion, and it’s floating down. It hits the floor. Then you walk on it, it goes back up in the air. The air scrubber grabs what’s in the air. That’s the process. You want containment, you want negative air, and you want the air scrubbed.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. That’s good. That gives people at least an idea of are they doing it right? Again, I would add one more to that. You kind of said this earlier. Are they assessing the situation to say, “Wait a minute. You’ve got positive water pressure on the outside of this wall. If we do all this and not fix that, then really, you’re going to end up in the same problem months down the road.”
That means possibly excavating the yard so it slopes down on the outside. It may need a new French drain. I don’t know. Were your gutters right? Do you need new gutters? Water and what it’s doing on the outside typically creates the problem. Maybe you have to, every once in a while – how many years, Dan? You’re an inspector. – do you have to have your houses re-caulked? I can’t tell you how many people’s homes leak because it’s just old, cracked caulking. Give them some advice on that.
Dan:
I’m going to hit on one that you mentioned. Most people think that if they put in an interior French drain, that stops the water, stops the mold. No. What you’ve done is stop the symptom of seeing the water going through the block wall. If the water’s going and soaking the soil underneath the floor, that’s where the wet molds, the ones are that toxic like -inaudible-, live. I go into many places where they’ve spent thousands of dollars to supposedly dry the basement, and the basement’s moldier and smellier than ever.
Now, there are some of the interior French drain people now who have caught onto that, and they do what’s called a sealed system. They seal the top, and they put an exhaust system into this so that the moisture, instead of going into the house, and the mold spores, instead of going into the house, go outside. That’s one solution.
You really did touch on one of the most common things that people do wrong like putting in a French drain. If you have soil, you want to make sure that you cover it. Wet dirt, if you’ve ever stuck your head in a crawlspace, mildew mold. They make barriers systems that you can put on. Again, put an exhaust system underneath. It works very similar to a radon system, and you can get the moisture and the mold out from that area.
There are a lot of tricks that can be done, but sadly, in a lot of places, if you’re not getting advice from the right people, they’re going to do what they do everyday and not what solves your moisture problem. Sometimes you need to find a way to get fresh air into the place.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. Yeah. We’ll get to solutions because that’s one thing I always do. I make sure there’s fresh air being able to be brought into the home and toxic air out. Is there a –
Dan:
-inaudible-
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, absolutely. Is there a test you can do to test the toxins in the home, that you do?
Dan:
When I have people sick – and I truly have clients that moved into their house, and one week, two weeks, three weeks, a month later, they’re sick and having to move out. The TL15 is a chemist that goes in. They put an absolute vacuum into it. You open it up. It pulls the air into it, then we send it back to the lab, cryogenically freeze it. They put it in a mass spectograph, and they can actually identify which toxins are in the air. It’s wonderful!
What’s funny is whenever I’m talking over the lab results with the lab, they can tell me, “Well, you know it looks like that was a high traffic area because there are a lot of products from gasoline in this house, or there’s a lot emit from this that was typically found in paint.” One of the most innocuous ones is a -inaudible-, and nobody expects to find that chemical in the house. The funny part is whenever you do hardwood floors, if they don’t cure it right, that’ll go in, and that can make -inaudible-. There are so many different illnesses.
Oh! Formaldehyde -inaudible- outside the lumber liquidator story. That wasn’t a made-up story. I’ve had clients that would test -inaudible- really sick in the house because of the formaldehyde that’s in some of that flooring. For that type of testing, we use what’s called dragger tube. The problem with formaldehyde is the chemical is one of the smallest, simplest chains of DNA other than hydrogen, and it doesn’t identify on a TL15, but I can do a little glass tube type of test that has a polyester fabric in it, and they can tell me whether they have so much formaldehyde in the place.
You have Chinese drywall. There’s a test that I can do for that that again, it’ll tell me whether they have the sulfur products. You would be shocked. You would be amazed if you saw what that drywall does in that house. I’ve opened up outlets and seen that the caulk has turned green from all of the sulfur products in the air. Nuts! People are getting sick on this!
Dr. Pompa:
Wow! Those are some major pitfalls. Can someone get one of those TL15 tests? Can you send them to somebody and tell them where to put them, then send them back to you and look –
Dan:
It really should be handled by somebody who knows what they’re doing.
Dr. Pompa:
All right.
Dan:
It really needs to be – the conditions need to be – when you’re talking expensive tests -inaudible-. It’s just not a good one for self-administering. You don’t do that kind of test. It’d be like asking somebody, “Well, could you go in and use the MRI equipment?” Yeah, you probably could, but it’s not a good idea.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, not a good idea. Yeah, your sound kind of got a little bit –
Meredith:
Yeah. Can’t quite hear everything. Speak a little more loudly and clearly.
Dan:
Okay.
Meredith:
Thank you. Awesome. I’m thinking, too, across the country, there are probably some areas that are much more susceptible to mold damage than others. I lived in New Orleans for years, post-Katrina, in a home that has six feet of water during the storm. I know I had some mold exposure there. If you can kind of talk a little bit about some areas in the country where people are a lot more susceptible so they could kind of be aware –
Dan:
It’s a lot event-driven and weather-driven in addition to being construction-driven. You mentioned one that was absolutely perfect. The Katrina problem, of course, was complicated, not just by the fact that places got flooded, but they got flooded with water that had been contaminated by sewage, which is a perfect food for mold, and more importantly, it sent viruses and all types of other illnesses, whether it be MRSA-like living in people’s homes -inaudible-. You would have a different set of molds than you would in just a normal wet place.
Some of the worst areas for mold are Texas, Florida, and those kinds of wet environments. Housing has a lot to do with it, too, just the way something’s built. Being new or being old, either way could be a problem. Older homes, it’s often with sandstone foundations. The water wicks through -inaudible-. New houses, of course, because they’re too tight – there are things that you can do to make a house be a mold problem that you’d never think of.
Let me give you one example. If you change out the air conditioner, then go up to an air conditioner that is oversized for the house, then it runs a short time. Water in the ductwork in the basement will condense just like the ice water on the 4th of July, and leaks through, and gets your drywall, and walls, and your ceilings in your basement. Even doing something like putting too large an air conditioning system into a house could be an issue.
Other conditions around them, which just popped into the mind is that if you put a new furnace in, and they don’t take care of venting a gas hot water tank correctly, you have what’s called an orphan hot water tank, which means the combusting gases, the first one of which is water vapor don’t leave, and you can have mold growing on the ceiling above where a hot water tank that had been there for 30 years and never been a problem, simply because you put the new furnace in and didn’t put a smaller vent in to accommodate the lower heat of the hot water tank alone.
It’s a complicated issue. The funny part is probably 20% to 25% of the new furnaces installed that I see in this area, they don’t deal with the hot water tank venting properly, and so they’re setting it up. All you need is a house on the verge of growing mold. When we go up over 45% relative humidity, it grows, and you have one factor like that or a factor like stuffing too much insulation in the attic so that the water vapor doesn’t leave, and now, all of a sudden, you’ve got a house that is moldy because of that.
You talk to different geographies, the area of the country where that is – the different things you do in those areas, whether it be heating or cooling. The South would have the tendency more to have oversized air conditioners because the salesman for the air conditioning company says, “Well, you -inaudible- the next size up, then you’ll always be cool real quick.” Yeah, but then you have condensation in the ductwork.
Dr. Pompa:
On your website, do you have a list of these things that people can look for? You mentioned putting too much insulation in your ceiling. Now water vapor doesn’t get through, increases moisture. You mentioned not venting the hot water tank properly, even too big or too small of vents. Okay, I’m leaving this conversation going I just want to run around checking my own home. I want a list of these pitfalls. I want a list of, “These are the things you have to look at.”
Dan:
The set of articles I have deal with these in a semblance of a little bit at a time because each one needs an explanation. One just popped in my head because right now, as we’re recording, we’re near Christmas. I’ve had people get sick because they thought, they absolutely thought and believed that by not bringing a live tree in, they’re not going to get their allergies flared whenever the tree comes in, and -inaudible- they’re allergic to. Right?
If you take that tree and those decorations and you store them in the attic, and your attic has pollen, your attic has mold, and you bring the stuff out, then you’re right where you were with the real tree. I have an article just talking about how to store your Christmas things, and what to do, and what to be careful when you’re bringing them out. Again, you can solve it. All you do is you take all the different greenery things that you have that are plastic, take them into the garage, and hose them down. I’ve had people call me and say they’re sick at Christmastime and wondering why. That’s its own article.
Again, it’s a library of things, and bless the person that wants to read all of them. It’s there. It’s there for the taking, and it’s free. Even so, there’s nothing that can replace having someone who actually understands how a house works, somebody who understands building signs and the environmental signs come to your place.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. Who would think too big of an air conditioner, that creates a whole other problem. I’ll tell you, in Florida, 90% of the building that I walk in, I go, “Mold!” It’s mostly from the air conditioning, right? It’s from the coil, I’m sure, and the mold’s building up in these units.
Dan:
Plus, if it turns on in short cycles, the ductwork closes to the plenum, closest to the place that does the work, is coldest, and that’s usually the lower level of the building. Sometimes it sits up on the rooftop. If it’s on the rooftop, it could be that it’s just a humid day, and that’s where it collects. Then you have a little bit of dirt because there’s always dirt in ductwork, and bingo-bango, you have the perfect food and the water. Yeah, in any place on earth, there’s food and water, something will grow. It’s often done with the installers thinking they’re doing you a favor by putting something in so you’re never going to be hot. They just don’t know.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, no doubt. It sounds like you should keep your – I always like to keep my fans on constantly, the air circulating.
Dan:
Absolutely.
Dr. Pompa:
It’s like running water. Running water doesn’t form mold. It’s when it’s hit and miss, that’s what…
Dan:
If you have a forced air furnace, that’s the best idea no matter the time of year because that humidity from your lower level dissipates it, and it keeps it even. In summer, when you’re running the air conditioner, it avoids that problem of cold ductwork and a cold plenum that’s going to land up being moldy. You are absolutely, 100% on with that.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. Okay. Let’s talk about some solutions that people can do right away to make their homes safer. One of the things that I do is put an ERV system in, an energy return ventilator, which just brings fresh air in and bad air out. Any other suggestions?
Dan:
That’s probably the best one that gets ignored, and it’s easy to do. Bottom line is the solution to pollution is dilution, like we said earlier. If I take a cup of oil, put it in a gallon of water, it’s pretty bad. I put it in a drum of water, not so bad. If you could take the toxins and air them out, particularly in a new house, and you’re ahead of the game. That’s a super thing to do.
If you have a house that’s too damp, instead of putting little dehumidifiers in, you could put one that’s central. Aprilaire, which makes the one that used – they used to make – for adding humidity to a furnace, also makes a whole-house humidity control, which will keep the air drier for the entire house. If you can’t do that – it’s usually about $2000 installed for that equipment. If you even take a regular, standard dehumidifier, hook it up, take the drain out the back instead of emptying it because most people – I know I’m not going to think about, first thing in the morning, go empty it -inaudible-. Just hook up the hose, put it to a floor drain. Set it for 45% relative humidity, and run it all the time. The only time it turns on is whenever it needs to. You don’t waste energy.
Dr. Pompa:
When I lived in Pittsburgh or anywhere there was humidity, I always had the dehumidifiers constantly going, like you said, making sure that my humidity was hopefully around 45.
Dan:
Absolutely. There’s a lot of things you can do like that. The other thing is plan your improvements and changes in the property with all of this in mind. Think about what you’re doing whenever you make the changes. Particularly if you’re fighting illness to begin with, it might not be bad to have somebody that actually understands environmental issues and building issues first come in. How many days sick do you want to be? If you pay the fee for someone who actually knows what they’re doing to come in, it’s a whole lot better than feeling ill for weeks, months, or a year.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. R number 1 of my five Rs of how to fix a cell – look, you have to remove the source, the sources that have bioaccumulated from the body, yes, but I’ll tell you, if you don’t remove the sources from your life, you’re never going to get well. It is impossible to get well if you’re living in a moldy home. I always say it’s impossible to get well if you have silver fillings still leaching mercury in your brain every day.
The big challenge with many people who are not progressing is that they’re in an environment that either has too many toxins, like you said, or too much mold. Both are toxins, mold and maybe just toxic sources. Like you said, if the floor’s not cured properly, it can be putting off too much formaldehyde. So much formaldehyde they use in the insulations today, these things can permeate for years until they off-gas. I don’t know. This floor that’s not cured properly, how many years would that take to off-gas, Dan?
Dan:
Again, the whole process is – the reason we smell it, the reason it leaves is it leaves maybe at 10% a year or whatever the particular rate for that product is, and you don’t know. It depends on how much was there to begin with and how well it holds. If it’s off-gassing, let’s say this year that 10% of it leaves. Okay, so next year, 10% of the 90% leaves, which leaves 81%. Then the next year, 10% of the 81% is going to land up leaving, so on, and so forth.
Over a time, stuff will off-gas, and hopefully, you don’t bring more of the same thing in by buying new furniture and the like. It really depends on the product. One of the things that tricks people the most, and I know that you struggle with, people don’t understand that they get sick – they’re used to thinking real time. I put my hand on the burner; I get burned. I hit my thumb with a hammer; I feel that. That’s not how environmental toxins work.
You’re stuck with the problem of it doesn’t clean up real quick. I’m stuck with the problem whenever I explain to someone, “Well, yeah, you lived -inaudible-years, but you didn’t have pneumonia at that point. You didn’t have this other disease. Now, all of a sudden, you can’t handle what’s in the house.” We need to do that. People go into denial that it’s the house.
Let me give you the best test I have of building – it might be work. It might be a church. It might be something else that’s making you sick, too, by the way. If you keep track of where you are, when you are, and how you feel, you understand that it happens at a time delay. If I walk into a building that makes me sick, I’m not going to get sick now; I’m going to get sick four hours from now. Until we get past that, thinking only if I hit my hammer now, that’s the hammer.
Dr. Pompa:
Right.
Dan:
Again, I know that’s a struggle that you have, and I’ve heard you work with people who just never thought of it that way.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. Yeah, it’s true. I always tell people, “Look, when you go into an environment, how do you start to feel?” It’s typically not an immediate reaction for most people. “How do you feel? How are you sleeping? How’s your brain fog? How’s your aches and pains?” It’s not random. Notice how you feel when you are in an environment, when you leave that environment for an extended period of time.
Maybe you go on vacation to the beach, and that place is even worse. People say, “Well, I felt worse when I went” – so, of course, you have to assess every environment. You should leave the environment enough times that you realize that something happens. Certain symptoms occur when you get back into that environment. That is the best test, Dan. I couldn’t agree more. I think getting some of those other tests, the TL15 and other tests. People should be doing these things, for sure. Meredith?
Meredith:
Yeah. I just had a question, too. Obviously, these chronic, chronic mold issues are much more of a problem, but what if someone’s had an acute exposure? Maybe this is for Dr. Pompa. What would you suggest?
Dan:
Chronic exposure, that’s a question.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. In an acute exposure, some people that aren’t sensitized yet, just getting out of the exposure’s good enough, and their body deals with it. Other people are left with some symptoms. The GCell and the Bind are great because GCell raises intracellular glutathione, which is how your body naturally tries to get rid of things, downregulate inflammation. These biotoxins make their way into the liver, bind up to bile, and the bile’s reabsorbed, and you’re bringing them around and around. Bind actually pulls the biotoxin out of the biocomplex. I would do some heavier doses of GCell and Bind. Even the new one, Cellular Detox, binds up biotoxins. Adding in some Cellular Detox is also going to be critical, but for goodness sakes, stay out of the environment.
Meredith:
Mm-hmm. I’ve also thought, too, as you’ve kind of mentioned, some people live in moldy homes and don’t get sick. Can you explain that?
Dan:
Yeah. There are – I’m sorry.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah. Go ahead, Dan. I was just going to say – and I’ll set you up for that. I know that Shoemaker talks about – and he’s an expert in biotoxins. Certain genes make your more susceptible. I’m going to tell you, I think genes are always certain things that can get triggered. I don’t think genes ever make us sick, or very rarely, I should say. I know that it’s really – I believe it’s more people who have other neurotoxic exposures going on. Those people are sensitized, just waiting for the next hit or the perfect storm. Those are the people that seem to get triggered from mold, I think, even before the gene. Anyways, Dan, what’s your feelings?
Dan:
My feelings are 100% with you. Let me give you – one of the worst problems I get is the husband and wife, or parents and the child, and only one person is sick. They scratch their head and say, “It must be the imagination.” The example I use, we all know about, there are young folks who could eat one peanut and go into anaphylactic shock. There are other people, and most kids, could live on P, B, and J all of their life. The problem is each one of us is individual with the sum of all the exposures. Whenever we’re working with other people who don’t believe or don’t understand that one person in a household can be a problem with the health reactions, and another one can be perfectly healthy, they need to think of it in that way.
The other problem is real often, we have one person working inside the home, the other outside the home, I’ll often go in, and their discussion is, “Well, I’m not sick. They’re sick.” The total time of exposure counts, too, which is something that -inaudible-.
Dr. Pompa:
Absolutely.
Dan:
The amount of exposure you have to that particular toxin, plus all of the other toxins.
Dr. Pompa:
I agree. I think it’s mostly that. I think it’s how full was your bucket full of neurotoxins? Stressors, how full is your bucket filled with stressors, physical, chemical, or emotional? It just takes that one more to throw it over the edge, which I call the perfect storm. We have a few stressors going on, and boom, bring in that one more, and then now we have a perfect storm scenario. Does that perfect storm turn on certain genes? Absolutely. I believe that genes are triggered and turned on.
I know, in Shoemaker’s early work, he looked at the HLA genes. I have doctors running the HLA test, and we just found that, really, it didn’t matter. I couldn’t correlate it, statistically, with any one gene in accordance to his work, honestly. It just seemed like the person who already had too many exposures through a lifetime and bioaccumulated, those are the ones whose bucket overflowed. They ended up with a bunch of symptoms. That could be you. It could be the next thing.
It took me a lot of mercury vapor from my amalgam fillings and having some mold exposures, all these things happening at the same time, that was it. I got sick. Look out.
Dan:
Absolutely.
Meredith:
Very real issues. Wow. It’s been some amazing information. Is there anything else, Dan, you’d like to add?
Dan:
I think, really, it’s important to find somebody who understands buildings, understands look around at things. Don’t be satisfied with a 15-minute, come in, take a test. You want to know the underlying conditions. If you have to do things to make yourself well, you need to look at the process. You need to work with someone like Dr. Pompa to get yourself well because it typically doesn’t happen real quickly on your own. In finding people in your geographic area, I’ll put something up on my website that you’ll be able to find them.
If you have a particular problem, there are a lot of articles there that relate to this that I would be tickled that you come take a look at, and use, and benefit from here. I wish nobody needed my services. I’m glad I’m there to do it. That’s very similar to Dr. Pompa. I’m sure if you had a magic wand, you’d make everybody well.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah.
Dan:
It’s a good thing you’re there. Hopefully, we can help enough people live a better life after we’re done.
Dr. Pompa:
You know, it’s funny, Dan. I’m sitting here, looking at you and I, and we are the answer to modern day illness. I don’t say it bragging or boasting, meaning that we just – we’re looking at dealing with the sources. I always say you’ll never get well unless you get your environment safe. You are R number 1 on the environmental side. I’m R number 2 of helping people get it out of their body, these toxins that bioaccumulate. Both of those represent R number 1. If you don’t remove the source, folks, you are just not going to get well. Remove the interference, the body has an ability to heal itself. That’s how I got my life back. That’s how thousands of others got their life back.
Dan, you’re dealing with a source in homes, which is such a hidden source today. Thank you for the wealth of knowledge you’ve given. This is an important show. It really is. Folks, if you’re watching it, and you’re just not progressing, look to these things in your home. Get your homes tested. Evaluate every nuance, every chemical, every possible mold exposure in your life, your home, work, school, whatever it is because I’ve seen it time and time again that our environment is making us ill. Dan, thank you for the wealth of knowledge. We’ll read those articles.
Dan:
It was my pleasure. Let me throw one last -inaudible-. So often when people have mold problems, they plug the Plug-Ins, the odorizers in their own wall, right? The vehicle in them is formaldehyde.
Dr. Pompa:
Terrible.
Dan:
The thing that makes them smell is synthetic. I’ll go in, someone’s sick in their home from their mold, and they’ve made themselves sicker by throwing in all these smelly things so they can’t smell the mold.
Dr. Pompa:
Always. I walk into these homes with these air fresheners. Folks, they have, on average, up to six neurotoxins in these things. Unplug, folks, literally. Get rid of that stuff. Don’t hang them in your cars. Don’t put them in your homes. It’s chemicals. Don’t cover up smells. Get to the source. That was great, Dan, to show on that because that is one of my pet peeves, for goodness sakes! I hate air fresheners!
Dan:
I go in, and I get sick from them. It’s like they’re saying, “Why are you sick? I know.” Whatever.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. How about people wearing the darn air freshener on their clothes? It’s the Bounce and the fabric softeners. You can smell them a mile away. I would tell these people – I wouldn’t even allow patients to come in my office in the day. I would be like, “Okay, you’re going to go home now.” I have too many sensitive people that can’t do that. Oh, gosh. We could talk about toxic sources all day long, right?
Dan:
Absolutely, and we would never get to all of them.
Dr. Pompa:
It doesn’t. This is why America’s so sick. Toxins drive cellular inflammation. R number 1, we need safe environments, and we got to get the toxins out of our tissue. True cellular detox, that’s the answer on our end. Dan, thank you again. Gosh, we hope we can have you on in the future, where we could blow up just even one of these topics.
Dan:
Absolutely, we could.
Dr. Pompa:
Yep.
Meredith:
Thank you, Dan, so much. Could you share your website one more time?
Dan:
It is WWW.PittsburghMoldTesting.com. Pittsburgh is one of those burghs that’s spelled with an H. P-I-T-T-S-B-U-R-G-HMoldTesting.com. Feel free to use it. Lots of people do. We get about 50,000 hits every 90 days. Make yourself available. If I can be of help to one person with that site, I’m tickled.
Dr. Pompa:
I’m sure you will. Thank you for that. PittsburghMoldTesting.com. We got it, Dan. Thank you.
Dan:
Thank you.
Meredith:
Thank you. Thank you for all you do. Send us that Christmas article, as well. We’ll be happy to share that with our viewers, as this time of year, very, very important to know.
Dr. Pompa:
Great idea. Great idea. Thank you, Meredith, for that. Get that article out, no doubt. Thanks.
Meredith:
Yeah. All right. Thanks so much, everyone. Really important message today. Share and like this show. Share with your friends and family, and we will see you next week, where we will be featuring Professor Thomas Seyfried. We will be discussing cancer, and the ketogenic diet, and its role in treating cancer.
Dr. Pompa:
Great show. Great show. Dan, you got to turn in for that. This is a big show. This is a big topic. We’ll see you next week, folks.
Dan:
We’ll see you.
Meredith:
Yep. All right. See you next week. Thanks, everyone.
